Hi Folks, I need some help with our SBC engine build. I’m not new to engines, done several rebuilds but it’s been original spec mostly and never a Chevy engine. It’s been Cadillac V8, Ford V8, Volvo, VW etc and the last time we made any serious engine build for power was well nearly twenty years ago, and that was a VW Beetle 2.3liter turbo making the ¼ mile in 10.69. It was an all original full body, interior, chrome etc 1958 Beetle except for engine and box, real wolf in sheep’s clothing. Now we have a 58 Suburban and well the 283 aint up for the task of an Autobahn stomper scaring the living daylight out of Beemers, Bimmers and Benzes. Hence I sourced a SBC 400 (2 bolt main), and modded the frame to take a Jag IRS with 2.88 posi final drive. The 400 will be coupled to a overdrive box, but I’m not sure yet which one, the goal is 2000 rpm at 70mph and that it should be able to do 150mph. This is a sleeper setup, so a few things are more or less set in stone. 1: Will have original Chevy script valve covers which doesn’t have oil filler or breather holes 2: The 400 will get machined / tricked at the rear to be able to hookup a 283 breather pipe 3: Intake needs to be able to be machined to take a 283 oil filler pipe. It can’t be a super high riser, somebody should be able to get fooled that it’s original at a quick glance. 4: It will have a TBI EFI controlled by MegaSquirt II (possibly III), TBI is a 900cfm Holley 4-port, with 4 injectors (12R-11157B) 1 3/4" throttle blades. I have a 670cfm too but my guess is that it’s way too small. 5: It will have a dual snorkel Pontiac GTO 455 69-72 air cleaner; big nice stocking looking and it will hide the TBI. 6: Will have short WP since I want to look stock for 58 i.e. generator/alternator mounted with original brackets on the drivers side, A6 compressor* mounted with original (well Corvette/Chevelle 65-66) brackets on passenger side, and finally PS pump mounted low on the drivers side. 7: Likely having 2.5” ram horn ala Corvette early sixties, they look the same on the outside as the 58 ram horns on the Burb 8: Will have a small body Megasquirt controlled HEI dist from http://davessmallbodyheis.com/ -- i.e. a stock 58 dist with modern interior and computer controlled ignition map 9: Everything will get painted factory.. . I’m not building a street and strip engine. Sure I might take a test doing the ¼ mile but that is maybe once or twice during the time I will have the Burb. This engine needs to be streetable and produce loads of torque all the way from say 2000 to 6000 rpm, that is kind of why I went for a 400. Want to have that good feeling you get in a big cube engine. A feeling just getting whisked away from standstill effortlessly without really flooring the pedal, but merely touching it. It’s speed as and the ability to overtake like the car was on fire that is of high importance. Remember it will be a highway/Autobahn warrior . Since it’s going to be driven in Europe it can run on 100 octane pump gas (that is about 95 octane in the US due to differences in how octane is measured), I would although prefer to drive on 95 octane (about the same as 91 octane in the US) since that is about 30 cents cheaper per gallon, mind you we pay nearly $8 per US gallon over here – and yes it sucks big time!! If we start with the top end things where a lot easier before simply not much to choose from, I’ve also forgot loads and kind of need your views of what I should go for. Been looking at heads, and if you don’t want to go for cheapo ProComp head, the main stuff looks to be costing about 800 – 1400 assembled depending if you go iron or alu. This is for non CNC ported, but figure I could light porting, matching etc our self since we done that in the past. Looks like runner of about 210 – 225 should be sufficient for a 406 – 421 (depending if I stroke or not). I’m interested in hearing your view and arguments of what heads to go for, around the price bracket mentioned above, likewise what intake to match it with. This assembly aint going to be stressed as an explosive street and strip engine will. Hence is it wrong to think we can go for cheaper parts on non critical parts i.e. lifter and rockers. From experience a breakdown there will not be catastrophic, compared to a breakdown in the rotating assembly. Thinking a retrofit roller cam, with ProComp hydraulic roller lifters (~$120), and ProComp roller rockers, thinking shaft but then there is not much stress on this engine so maybe not warranted to have them. Don’t know what ratio to go for although, well it’s a cam question and here is where I really need advice. What cam should I go for? Need some god advices of what roller to go for? And if I don’t go roller what flat tappet would you recommend? I know that the 2.5” ramhorn might hamper the setup quite severely, but how much will in hamper it? I’m going for a relatively free flowing 3” exhaust, dual the whole way back and with a cross over pipe. I’m also contemplating having exhaust dump vales such as the once sold by quicktimeperformance.com. That way I could just dump out the exhaust without any mufflers at ¾ gas or above i.e. overtaking. Ah yes it would be nice with a good recommendation of what timing gear (type of mechanism) to go for and what model/brand to set for. Here I want good stuff since if this breaks it will get expensive. Well good doesn’t mean expensive just reliable and does the job, and if necessary adjustable (depending on cam). In regards to the rotating assembly I can see us going stock with 0.030/0.040” overbore just. Well of course blue printed, good quality stuff and so on but in all essence stock. However I feel that going internally balanced would be of great advantage, likewise getting better stuff would provide for an engine that will last. So I’m thinking going (forged) internally balanced crank, and I think also going from 3.75” to 3.875” stroke since the price is the same anyways. If I understood it correctly using 6” Scat H-beam stroker rods and you can still go with stock cam base circle and it would only require minimal if any modification of the block (correct me if I’m wrong). It would be nice to get your opinion on what crank and rods to use and your view why. Piston wise I’m contemplating forged or hypereutectic, forged is not that much more expensive but all small expensive in an engine build adds up. Reason why I think hypereutectic might be enough is that; we will never shoot it with nos, nor will we rev it like idiots. Anyways what is your thoughts, what to go for and why? Remember we are in recession so as everyone else we aren’t made of $$ . Really big thanks in advance for everyone reading my post and possibly giving advices. Dyna *The compressor might be the newish pro6ten. Still kind of like the old A6 better since it looks just massive …. PS: Here is a pic of my Burb a while back:
You might want to do an "intro" first at the top of the Forum page and I'm sure these guys would be glad to help you out... Welcome!
If youre set on running ram horns to look traditional youll lose a lot on them with a 400+ cube engine. you could extrude hone them, abrasive media shoved thru them under high pressure to hog them out. stock racer guys have been doing it for years. 421 need to watch what rods you run, eagle and others make a stroker rod that moves the outer rod bolt land surface down to clear your internals. still may need small base circle cam. With the lift youre gonna run for a "driver" you can probably get away with stock base circle if you choose rods carefully on a 421. You really dont need a forged crank if youre not racing it, compare the pricing, consider what youre after. I love AFR for heads, but if youre gonna run ram horns, no need to spend that much. Youre choice, traditional and ram horns or headers and power. I know the traditional guys are gonna shit over that one, but ram horns were never meant for 400+ cubes. Go Headers, paint them black, theyre buried anyway on this suburban. might be different with an open hood rod. If you run the ram horns just pick up some steel heads, world products, dart etc, youll still make great power. Im piecing together a 434 combo, the stroker balanced packages really are worth the $, you'll get the newest "clearanced" rods for the stroker, crank will be balanced, once you price it out compared to piecing it together youll see. Id go forged pistons, you can always put some miles on this then change the cam and go racing, if you spend the $ to stroke it, go forged, even if you use a cast crank. Keep in touch, Im interested in parts selection you go with.
Sorry about that one.. I've now composed a proper intro: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=580652 Burbly Dyna
Hi Indy, Thank you for your answer and insight. I think I have come to the conclusion I needs some real headers. If they are right they will not be that visible since they are mostly covered from insight from the above by the A6 compressor and the generator (well alternator in a generator body). Rod wise I’m looking at Scat “2-350-6000-210” see: http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/catalogs/2011/14-23.pdf the way they are making their stroker rod looks wise than the Eagle one. To me the Eagle Stroker rod (CRS6000BS) looks like a machined normal Eagle rod just, even the product description says CNC clearanced for up to 4” stroke. (Do a search with http://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=32 ). One thing is that the SCAT one doesn’t tell you what stroke it clears, another question what does the “CNC clearanced for up to 4” stroke mean? Cleared of what? The cam, or the lower edge of cylinder walls or ??? I’ve been looking at a SCAT 440076 (std weight 4340 Forged 3.875” stroke 400 mains) or the 440076-2 (light weight 4340 Forged 3.875” stroke 400 mains). You say your putting together a 434 how are you planning to keep the rotating assembly inside the block without risking hitting water when your digging it out? That is what is keeping me from going 4” stroke. I’ve been looking at Probe Sportsman Race Series pistons. Yep as a rotating assembly there is a few suppliers that use SCAT with Probe pistons. As you say it’s cheaper and better to get it as an assemble rather than as individual parts. Been looking at ProComp PC-2973 hydraulic retrofit rollers and ProComp PC2341 (1.5) or PC2342 (1.6) shaft alu roller rockers. I know the latter might be over kill but would like my rockers to sit on a shaft. A bit unsure of all the guide plates and offsets etc, so need to read up on that, I assume it all depends on the head, if you move the valves from it’s std pos. I have to say I’m pretty clue less to what heads and intake to go for. Most alu intake can be worked to have a 283 oil filler pipe. Granted it would be nice if it was provided for so all you need to do is to machine it out. The Edelbrock Performer RPM #7101 has it as does but unfortunately the Airgap RPM #7501 doesn’t. It would be really great with some advice when it comes to a good high flowing intake, that still is working from 1500 and up, just like the Edelbrock Performer RPM. Hmm maybe should go for 210 AFR heads they around 1600 on fleebay, it’s in the upper region of our budget that is for sure, unless we mange to sell a car or two . Anybody interested in a Jag XJ12 Coupe or XJ6 Coupe we have one of each. A pair of RHS ProAction runs in around $1k add 300 and you get them in Alu. There is so many heads Patriot, WorldProducts, Brodix, Edelbrock etc. It’s equally at loss with the cam, was playing with the http://www.camquest.com/ and a retrofit roller cam - ProComp 280XFI HR13 looked like a good candidate that would give 400 ftlb between 1500 and 7000 rpm with a peak of 550 at 4500. It sure sounds nice to me. , more later time to rush here.. Burbly Dyna
58 suburban? 150? with an unblown, early stock appearing small block? At least you set yourself a good challenge! I'd build a 540, use stock steel valve covers but cut the centers with the script out of a pair of the old SBC covers, and weld them into the BBC covers. how many Europeans can really tell them apart at a glance? Anyways, back to the small block: Cam selection should be based on the operating RPM range. If you want to make serious power, you might need to raise your rpm goals. You might want to spend money where it counts for durability...name brand valvetrain components, forged pistons, etc.
Ok, let me see if I have this straight. You want to build a n/a small-block with enough cam and head to make enough power to pull a 50s era suburban to 150 mph, AND you are gonna drive it on the street with a 2.88 gear behind it??
well you got to be optimist aren't you. I know it's a high goal but if you aint aiming high you will not get anything done. As long as you know it might not succeed 100%. The thing is that I easily get my 5.3 liter 275HP XJS V12 which is heavier than the Burb up to 150+ mph and that is with a 2.88 rear end. The peak ftlb is 295 it the XJS and the 421 should be able to give 400+ between 1500 and 6500, with a peak of 530.. It mighht not be enough to overcome the wind resistance but at least I will come close.. It should not be that scary to drive since it's after all have the same suspension as my XJS which is pretty ok to drive in very high speeds.. Anyways it's all in the air and I'm here to find out what I can do.. to at least come close to my goal. Cheers Dyna
well as said you got to set a goal and high goal it will keep you going. As long as you don't jump off a cliff if you aint getting there.. Hehe depends on where you are.. Scandinavia quite a few but then they are quite mad about drag racing and US cars over there.. Germany, Netherlands, UK a few maybe. Southern Europe not a single one . Your right about the quality stuff, going for branded and forged stuff for all rotating parts.. Think I still might take a chance with the lifters and rockers, everyting else is pretty much going to get branded.. As per RPM band been looking at the CompCams 280XFI HR13. I definitely need some advice of what other alternatives could be good pick.. Burbly Dyna
Go with a complete SCAT rotating assembly, and the shorter rods if you can - they will allow a taller piston which will stabilize it in the bore. Personally, the best heads out there right now are probably the Air Wolf's from Dr. J's. They are even reasonably priced. A edelbrock performer rpm is a good intake and looks stock enough once your grind off the edelbrock name in the casting and paint it. You could also go cast iron like the Dart Iron Eagle 215's, Motowns, or RHS heads. The comp cam you are looking at it a little small but should make great torque. Torque is what you need, not HP.
At that speed, wind resistance becomes important. The burb is about twice as tall as the Jag, right? twice as much drag at the same speed, assuming the cd is the same, which is not likely. The only reason I think it's challenging is because I've been messing with the late 50s chevy trucks for a long time. I love them...but I also realize they weren't designed for speed.
Dyna i hope you can do it(we will need a video of it at speed).Maybe some of the land speed racers can help with aero,horspower or weight tips.
Hi Rick, Thanks for your answer. Tried to get some info about where to buy and how much for the AirWolf 220 SBC heads. But nothing.. so where and how much .. From a forum search they are pretty impressive when it comes to power.. May I ask what cam you would step up to? Would it be a 292XFI HR13? Do you have one you would suggest? Still want one that gives loads of torque as you say.. When looking at 3.875 SCAT crank the only rod that will fit is a 6", and if I'm ordering an whole rotating assembly that definitely what they will give me.. Burbly Dyna
No s.... the Burb is worse than a Volvo and a real brick . They are sure not designed for speed. 150 will be very hard, 130 is more realistic. A XJS is very sleek, and has a pretty decent CD and the burb is about 2x the hight of the XJS as you say.. Burbly Dyna
130mph with a semi streetable small block in a mid fifties 'burb is a challenge. 150mph is alice in wonderland...
How's the build coming? Let me get this right? A '58 Sububran 406/421 SB w/2.88 gears, OD trans (700R4?) .30% Overdrive, 30"+ tall tires? My guess you'll never get it out of 2nd gear. LOL I have a 406" SB, Edelbrock heads, mild Comp cam, Performer intake, 401 HP @ 5,100 RPM, 468 Lbs. Ft. of torque @4,200, 700R4, 3.50 gears, 28" tall tires in a 1950 Ford woodie. I should have put 3.89's or 4.11's. Only had it up to 120/125 MPH cause it starts to want to fly! Never got close to 4th gear. Good Luck!
Look who's up late!! Almost lost the hood!!! I'm done with the topend stuff. How's the artwork/T-shirt business? Your old Dad
Always. Haven't slept in years. Way to go! So you're working on the 60' now? Slow Car Craft decided to deny me as a vendor at their show. So now I have an open weekend. My web lady is still dicking me around on my website too.
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