I need some Metal working advice. Warped rear quarter panel

I am working on my 1954 Chevy 210. I purchased a patch panel for the lower rear section of the quarter panel (behind the wheel, between the wheel and bumper. This patch panel wasn't the best quality but it wasn't terrible. I did my best to shape the patch to the contour of the car before I welded it in.

Well, now that the patch panel is welded in AND i welded in the gas tank filler door the panel is warped. I started to hammer and dolly the panel and made some good progress UNTIL:
THe panel started to do that Oil Can noise/flex. Any type of blow with the hammer (even the slightest tap) would cause the panel to "**** in" Or "Pop out". It's kind of difficult to describe, but you body guys know what I am referring to.

I tried hitting the panel with a propane torch (moderate heat) then rapidly cooling it. This is only a temporary fix, because the second a light blow of the hammer touches the panel it pops/****s in again.

How can I fix this problem?

I was wondering if cutting a relief cut where my weld bead is (between the factory metal and the patch panel) and then hammering the metal to get it pretty straight before I weld that seam back shut.

HELP

 

You have stretched the metal and the only thing you can do is shrink it back so it is tight again. If you can get to the back sidewith a dolly, heat a small dime size spot to red - it will rise up and then gently tap it down against the dolly. Don't smash it or you will stretch it again. Try to tap around the red spot like you are trying to shove the metal toward the center (you actually are). Start at the edge of the oil can and do this around the outer portion and then work toward the inside.

Another way which you also need rear access for is to use a shrinking disc. There are You Tube videos for both processes and lots of info if you Google. Don't be in a hurry and practice on a s**** panel first.

 

you do not and should not heat anything cherry red!

You should be warming the metal (it shouldnt even turn blue), just hot enough to make steam.

we really need pics to see what your doing, it could still be shrunk and need stretching, or it could be overstretched and need a lil shrinking.

yeah and get a shrinking disc, its lots easier to control.

 

Hey,

I suggest that what you did was shrunk the panel when welding it! Your hammer & dolly work stretched some areas of the panel, but it wasn't a very controlled stretch. I'd try some on dolly stretching of your welds to see how the panel responds. Hot shrinks only shrink metal when done correctly with the proper use of hammer and dolly. Start from your undamaged areas, and move into your warped highs & lows shrinking your high stretched areas whyle raising the lows. Yo may well have to cut some areas loose and straighten, carefully tack weld & finish weld to correct this panel.

A photo would help to give any further advise-

" S****y Devils C.C. "

 

I'll post pictures tonight when I get home. I will try and get a video too.
I machined my own shrinking disc from stainless steel, I have used this method and it works great on small high spots.

When you guys see what the panel does, I think it will make more sense. A video is a must!

 

Ask and ye shall receive.




If clicking on the video doesn't work, there is a link right below this video frame that will take u to my webshots page to play the video

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MVI_0281.MOV

Now, how do i solve this problem? Notice how a very large area is popping in and out?

I know the patch panel looks like ****. I am not embarr***ed. I am going to work hard to get this fixed correctly. This was my first time and I made several mistakes. One thing I screwed up big time was, I cut too far forward (close to the wheel well) so I had to cut my patch panel and extend it.

 

looks like your not done stretching yet. the crown is not the right hieght even when pushed out.

you should knock those welds down a bit more before your start with the hammer too.

 

The metal was pulled in due to the welding. Looks to me right where you have the green x with a circle is where you need to hammer on the weld in order to stretch it back out. Don't hammer on the surrounding sheetmetal just on the weld. Place a flat dolly directly behind the weld and hammer directly where the dolly is. If you used a mig you may have to grind down the weld bumps on the backside to make it flush. When installing patch panels **** the edges of the panels together and never leave a gap, if you do the metal will pull together and then you fight the problem you are having right now if one area gets a little hotter than another.

 

I'd start working around that gas tank filler hole, as I see a major shrink zone right there where the welds pulled as they cooled. I'd start by grinding all the welds down (just the weld, not the panel surface) to just a little above the surface of the panel on both sides, and then see if you can't stretch out the weld zone all the way around the patch with a hammer and a dolly from behind.

If those are MIG welds, the weld areas will be pretty hard in comparison to the the rest of the panel, so this will take some time. If you manage to level out the area around the tank opening, then apply the same process to the rest of the seams down below.

Ken

 

When you say knock those welds down more, do you mean to grind them down or physically knock them down by hammering on the weld itself?

The green X is a high spot. I did a pretty good job hammering that down and leveling it out with the rest of the sheetmetal until I noticed that huge section popping in and out.

So the advice at this point is? Hammer on the exterior side of the weld and place the dolly on the interior side? THis should stretch it right?

 

Ken,
Thank you for the advice. Why do you think the gas filler area is the problem? I actually was very patient with all those welds and really took my time. I honestly think that the gas filler area is not too far off from where it needs to be.
But, I can continue to work it.

All these welds are mig welds!

 

I probably should have been a little more general about the process, because all of the welded areas on the panel will be affected the same way.

What's happened on your panel is that the welds themselves shrunk when they cooled down, dragging along the edges of the adjacent metal with them. The area affected is referred to as the "heat affected zone" (HAZ), and it's usually discolored somewhat by the heat from the welding. The combined shrinkage of all of these HAZ zones running in various directions is what's causing the oil canning effect in your quarter panel. Basically, to cure that oil-can, you need to unload all of these stresses by stretching the HAZ back out so the sheet can relax and sit in its proper arrangement again.

The first step is to get the sheet thickness reasonably uniform again, by grinding all the welds back down on both sides without touching the original panel material on each side of the weld. This will make it lots easier to stretch the welded areas back out and restore the proper shape to the panel.

I haven't done much work curing oil-cans yet myself, but I have heard of people dressing out the rest of the panel as much as possible first, and then watching the behavior of the panel after that to locate the cause of the oil can. First, you locate the trigger point of the oil-canning with your finger, the exact spot where you can make it pop in or out. While popping the metal in an out, move your other hand around applying various pressure to different areas on the panel until the oil canning stops, and you have located the root source of the problem.

Hope this is helpful.

Ken

 

---I would say that all your welds need to be stretched. You need to get the crown back into your panel, check the crown on the other side the two should match.
Grind the proud off of all the welds front and back. use a dolly and a good metal ******* and work the crown back in buy stretching the metal at all the welds.

 

All these guys are dead-on with thier advice. I might add that you may have to raise the weldproud a little so's you can get a grinder on it. Use a small grinder, 1 1/2" zip wheel is perfect and grind across the weld proud, not with it. That way just the teenist possible edge of the grinder is in contact with the metal. Don't be afraid to experement, the damage is already done so try doing something and understand what happens - like working 'on' dolly or 'off' dolly and try to figure out what it actually going on with the metal. You might want to get Frank Sargents' book - Metal Bumping. These guys just gave you some terrific advice, reading that book will help you appreciate what they just shared with you. Have fun.

 

I just had another look at this picture, and I noticed that there appears to be two parallel beads running vertically an inch or so apart just behind the wheel well. There will have been lots of heat to share around this area during the during the welding process, particularly for the narrow strip in the middle, so I'd view this area as a zone that might require some extra stretching.

Keep us posted on your progress, I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with it.

Ken

 

i would have to disagree w gearhead 1952. when i use a mig welder to install patch panels i leave a gap the size of a thin cut off wheel. wqhen do a gas weld or tig weld you can go with out a gap. with a mig weld you are adding metal ever time you pull the trigger. you must give that metal a place to go. i think the cut offs i use are like 1/32. they are the ones for a die grinder. too much gap is bad too though.

all other advice is dead on, when it comes to taking out that can. it does look like its shrunk too much. i use a propane torch to warm up the panel to push out on the area that is oil canned. then let it cool down on its own. no blowing air or wet rags. that makes the metal start to harden up and the heating process is to get the metal back to the form it has been in for the past 50+ years. take your time and watch how everything you do effects it. its all a learning process. good luck man. oil cans are a *****. once you get one figured out, the next one wont be the same. they all have there own personalities.

 

and your oil can is directly above those two vertical welds. i can almost guarantee thats where its going to need some help. heat rises. after grinding down your welds some more on both sides, push your dolly on your oil can from the back and tap your vertical welded spots in an upward pushing motion. see if that helps out at all.

 

Hey,

For your first patch panel ya didn't do to bad at all!
I've seen guys who were suppose to know whay they were doing completely ruin a replacement panel with heat and bad judgement!

Here's how I read your problem- Your video (big help, wish I knew how to make those) say's you've metal under tension ( shrunkin metal from welds) both and below the oil can/s. Two, you mentioned you had to partially shape this panel prior to fitup, to get to where you're at now. This and the welds would be a handful for anyone. The gas door looks as if it's above normal cotour in the photos? I'd start by grinding your weld beads as flush as you can, and be very careful not to overheat the metal doing so, as this will lead to more problems. Grind alittle in one spot, move on, grind a little in one spot, jus like tack welding. Now, start some on dolly hammering from the tail light area of your weld bead, and move slowely towards the oil can area. As you work the weld bead study how the panel reacts. Does the metal relax above & below the bead? It should! Move to the front of your weld bead, jus back of the wheelhouse and hammer & dolly the bead back towards the oil can. Now work the area of the gas door bead above the oil can. Be sure to hammer all of the beads to normal contour and straighten as much metal as you can before you deside that a shrink is what's needed to correct the panel's shape. If you land a shrink in an area where you have a ''false stretch'' i.e. missplaced metal, and not metal that's actually stretched, you'll produce more oil cans as the heat steals metal from surrounding areas to fill in the new voids, and soon the chase is on!

If you divide this repair into quarters & work from the sides inwards & from the top down and bottom up, towards that oil can area, and use small shrinks, as necessary, only after you've straightened as much as possible, you should be along ways closer to finishing up this repair.

'' I like the old millennium better "

 

Welds ground down. I did what you guys suggested and used a very thin grinding wheel to focus on only grinding the welds "HAZ". IN the pictures below you can see that ALL the welds have been ground down to almost the sheetmetal.

I DID NOT grind the welds from the back. I did all my welding from the exterior side of the car, so I didn't think there was a need to weld the back. What are your thoughts?

In the pictures you can see where I drew with black marker, an eye. The dot represents the epicenter of where the metal is popping. The veins represent where I saw metal moving. you can see how some locations around the dot have more area of metal moving than others.

But you were correct to say that the HAZ worst location was above those vertical welds.







DO i want to hammer on the outside and dolly from the inside or vica versa?

 

Looking good! Now your are getting the sheet to the point where you can start dressing it up a bit.

No need to do any welding from the back, we just want to make sure that no metal from the welds are sticking out through the back side where we want a nice flat surface for the dolly to rest on.

It's probably a little bit early to ****yze the oil-can at this point, as it would probably be better to blend in the patches a bit first and see how the panel sits then. Don't go too crazy trying to stretch any welds out yet, just go at it with a hammer and dolly for a while to get your welded connections flat and and smooth in relation to their surroundings.
Once you get the welds all dressed out like this, then it'll be time to see where you need to apply shrinking and stretching techniques to get the shape fixed up.

To blend in the patches and get the weld zones smoothed out, place a heavish dolly (a big comma maybe?) on the back of that panel behind the welded areas, and start smoothing them out with a hammer or a ******* from the outside. I wouldn't pound _too_ hard on anything with the hammers yet, as you are more interested in coaxing the welded connections to sit on the same plane as the surrounding areas at this point.
As you work, you may find places where you may need to pull out the grinder again to take down a weld area a little more to get the area sitting right. Just keep dressing up all the weld areas until they are smooth across the joints and equal to or just a little thicker than the fender material on each side. Undercuts in the weld areas are undesireable, so if you are going to miss, miss on the thick side.

Keep in mind also that MIG welds are harder and will fight back a little more.

You will often find occasions to work from either side depending on what you are up to, but hammers tend to leave edge marks (smiles) inside concave panels sometimes, so you might find a shaped ******* is better suited for concave work in swoopy areas.

I'm not sure what you have available as far as hand tools goes, but a nice ******* would likely be a real timesaver for a job like this. What have you got available to work with on this?

Ken

 

I have run into a major disaster. I was hammering mostly on the exterior of the car, with the dolly on the inside. I was hammering the welds trying to get everything to stretch. I thought I was making some progress with the shape of the quarter panel (nothing was helping the oil canning). I decided to grab my dent puller. So, I welded on a bunch of the copper pins to pull some of the low spots out. After I did this I noticed that the weld bead running horizontally was opening up, cracking and coming apart. I ignored it and said to myself, I will go back and fix that once I am done the hammering. I went back to hammering different areas trying to get things straightened out. The weld start to fall apart more and more. As the weld came apart more, I noticed that the &#8220;OIL CANNING&#8221; area was getting bigger and bigger. SO now the oil canning area is actually two spots which act like one huge oil can, now stretching as far back as the tail light area.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
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I will post pictures tonight when I get home from work.<o></o>
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So, now I have a huge problem and I don&#8217;t know what is the best way to solve this but here is what I was thinking. I am open to your suggestions.
1. Cut out the patch panel I have in there now. BUY a brand new patch panel and start this whole process over. BUT, I think there will still be some oil canning from the original sheetmetal. But this time before I start to tack weld in the new patch panel, I will try and fix the original sheetmetal oil canning issue so there are no stresses on the original metal, or patch when I get everything in.
2. Buy a HUGE section of original sheetmetal from a donor car. Cut the entire section of original sheetmetal that is oil canning out of my car, and replace it with this new donor piece.
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Price wise. It&#8217;s about the same. I found a donor piece but I haven&#8217;t seen it in person to determine the condition.

 

Yeah, might be easier to just replace the whole panel. Most hammer welding guys will attack each weld section AS they weld. Only a real experienced, brave soul will weld it solid, then hammer and dolly. As a beginner, I think it would be VERY difficult for you to succeed, considering you MIGed it, and you welded everything before trying to stretch the welds. Then, by using your dent puller, you really threw a mokey wrench into the works.
Get a new panel. If you can possibly do it, TIG, or better yet, gas weld it on. Stretching each weld as you proceed, even stretching the tack welds to hold it together. If you're careful, dilligent, watchful, co-ordinated, and a bit lucky, you'll get it right. If not, it's a good learning experience, and a little bondo isn't the worse thing in the world!
You'll get better, the more you do this, but even experienced bodymen have trouble sometimes! Esp. on flat, or low crown panels

 

What do you think about that epoxy stuff that works as a glue rather than a weld? I have some body work DVD's and they seem to use that epoxy alot more than welding because of the concern about warping the panels while welding.

I have a tig welder and I can tig weld. BUT, i dont think I am a good enough tig welder to only get a small amount of heat into the panel. I have seen pro's do it and they make it look easy, but I know it isn't.

 

Hey,

Given all the developments since you first posted I'd say the following: Yes, a replacement panel would probably be the quickest way out, but little use in teaching you how to solve your original problem. Your ''squirt gun weld didn;t hold, and was probably not hot enought to completly melt the metal together- 110 volt machine & flux core? The fact you have some experience with tig welding is good news! I go with a gas weld over all others for sheetmetal, by tig welding is a very good method of repair for this problem.
I'd restart this repair by cutting out your ''cold welds", realign all of your seams, and start with tig welded tacks @ 12'' a part. Stay on top of your heat control, keep all panels in alignment, and use plenty of cool- off time between welds. Once the panels have been tacked into good general alignment you can run closer tacks as your skill @ tig improves, run closer tacks & short beads. Always watch out for heat build up, and keep all areas of the repair in good alignment al all times.
You may wind up with more mud in the final repair than you had hoped unless you wanna take the time to bump the whole panel to within a slime coat of straight, but worse things happen in the shop.

You can do this and learn alittle more about metalwork & some good tig welding pratice!

" Get her done"

 

Yeah, as usual pimpin comes in with great advice. I would definately NOT use any kinda glue. That's for modern cars with different panel seams/joints.
I would just like to add, that your concern over too much neat with using the TIG, is probably not a problem. The hammer and dolly will fix that. Even working "hot" the TIG will put less heat in the panel than gas welding. And THAT is still correctable with hammering. Go for it!

 

Any other advice? I need to make a decision pretty quick here

 

I'm all for going with the TIG and giving it another shot. TIG will result in much softer welds that will be immensely easier to stretch out later, and will also give you another shot at hammerwelding a panel together under much more favorable conditions.

It sounds like you had a penetration problem with the MIG welds, I kind of wondered about that when you mentioned not having anything to grind off the back of the panel after you welded it up. When welding thin sheet, proper welding penetration should leave at least a flush surface or a slight weld proud on both sides of the connection. It takes a bit of practice to get good at this, but you'll catch on if you stick with it for a little while.

Welding thin panels together with MIG is tough, and the guys who do it successfully have a real good eye for delivering the precise amount of heat to get the job done as quickly as possible, without poking a hole in the puddle in the process. I'm definitely not that good with a MIG machine, that's for sure.

************

If you decide to give this panel another go with your TIG machine...

As others have indicated, this time you are going to start stretching the welds out right from the very first tack. This prevents the inevitible welding shrinkage from ac***ulating anywhere within the panel as you work, maintaining the proper shape of the panel from start to finish.

This was what made things extremely difficult for you before, as welds that aren't stretched out on the go tend to get "locked in" by the welds that follow, making them all the more difficult to deal with later.

To prevent this, just tack your ***embly together first with a series of close tacks, stretching each tack back out as you go, until the whole ***embly of your panel is tacked together exactly the way you want it to look when you are done. Then, weld up an inch or two of seam somewhere (shorter is better while you are learning), and then get the hammer and dolly out to stretch the welded area back a bit until it's sitting right again, and then move on to welding up the next increment. Repeat.

Also, remember to rotate your welding efforts around from place to place to prevent building up too much heat in any specific area at the same time, and use your grinder as required to level down any blobs on the welds before any hammer and dolly work.

Whether you start with a replacement section, or saving what you have is up to you. If you decide to go with what you've got, cut out the damaged areas and make some new filler patches to fill the voids, but try to avoid skinny strips that will be overly heated and shrunk by the welding. Try to lay out your patch sections so that every piece has a reasonable amount of surface area to it, to act as a heat sink to prevent distortion. As for the number of patch sections, less is always better!

When using TIG or gas, most guys I know recommend making tight fitting patches with little or no gaps. I gas weld panels myself, so maybe the TIG guys can chime in if they have differing opinions on the gaps.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with that TIG, I know for sure that you'll really like how the metal behaves in comparison to your MIG experience, especially if you stretch your welds as you work. I hope you Go for it!

Ken

 

Here is an update as of tonight and two bud lights...



I cut the panel panel section out. I knew this was a definite no matter what option i ran with. But, most like I wanted to see how badly the factory metal was warpped, from my mistakes...

Here is a video. I had a much better one, but my camera was recording in HD mode, so the file ended up being too big. I will reshot the footage tomorrow.
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I would really appreciate a little more advice at this point. PLEASE take a look at the latest video which I hosted and notice the "oil canning" that is still occurring, even with the patch panel removed.

I need some help trying to get this problem solved. At first, i didn't think that welding the gap cap section closed was causing any "oil canning" but now that the patch panel is out, and I still have some major "oil canning" I am starting to have second thoughts.

So a few options that I see are:

Cut out my gas filler patch. I will cut all the welds down. SEE if the "oil canning" goes away. I am skeptical about this at this point.

Option 2:
Cut a vertical slit from the horizontal cut for the patch, up to one weld line for the gas filler patch. Then cut up one weld seam of the gas filler patch.

I am thinking, this would re leave the stress in the panel and allow me to realign the original sheetmetal.

Thoughts and opinions please!

 

Hey,

At this point I'd land a couple good hot shrinks in the largest area of the oil can movement. I couldn't get the video to load, but with those panels removed, it should be very easy to tighten up & reshape this panel. Go ahead and straighten the area you've welded the gas door closed & finish most of the metal work necessary to the top half of the quarter. Once you've dialed in this & removed all the floppy metal that was overstretched/shrunk & overheated before, treat the lower half as if it were a patch panel, which it is/was. Again, watch out for heat damage caused by welding, and if things start to go south, stop, fix the damage rather than waiting until you've welded yourself into a corner so to speak.

If ya get in a hurry, and weld it up too fast ,you'll be back where you were before!

" Meanwhyle, back aboard The Tainted Pork "