I'm having trouble with this dang pump blowing gaskets on the back plate.The first time it blew shortly after motor install before it left the garage. I attributed it to the bolts on the back plate (there are 2) possibly being too loose from the manufacturer. Replaced the gasket and reinstalled and got it on the road this week. I have drove it less than 200 miles and last night it blew again.I'm afraid I'm gonna blow this engine if I don't get this cured. I noticed over the winter after the first reinstall a few drops of antifreeze on the garage floor. I couldnt tell for sure where it was coming from but I resnugged the mounting bolts a couple times and it continued. I obviously couldnt get to the back plate bolts and I was cautious of overtightening on the aluminum cover. It is a ford racing short nose pump which is based on a mustang pump only with a v belt. I have an 18 lb. cap on it - is that too high or is there likley another problem. Hopefully someone will offer some thoughts on this thread - thank you
Well guys I ***umed it was a gasket - wrong! I pulled the pump off and took the cover off and theres a plate thats spotwelded to the impeller that came off. It bounced around and spun in there and wore a groove all the way through the housing. Obviously defective workmanship but I've had it nearly a year even though it hadn't been run so I doubt Summit or Ford racing will back it but I'll try calling. I probably will end up finding someone that can weld aluminum and run it without that stupid plate.
Most times I think you could proove manufacture's defect. If you bought it at the place in my town they would cover you in a second. Give you a new pump on the spot if they had one! Summit is one of the best places for customer service that I have seen...
Doc, I am an expert on these pumps........not because I wanted to be, but because I had EXACTLY the same problems you had with mine. Long story, so get some coffee. I have a 331 Ford stroker in my 27 Ford and went with the Ford Racing short water pump ***embly. It cost me over $ 1,000 initially because you need the pump, timing cover, special harmonic balancer, and new pulleys. Ford Racing discontinued the pulleys so I was on my own and got some Zoops pulleys for sbf and had them machined to fit the spacer on the crank. Got the car running and after a couple of miles I started feeling a drizzle while driving. The gasket you had blow also blew out on mine. I airfreighted a new pump in from Summit as we were leaving in two days for Turkey Run in Daytona. Got the new pump installed and made it to Daytona. That night as we were going out to dinner I got up to about 50 mph and got a face full of hot antifreeze. (no hood) Got AAA to haul it back to the RV resort where we were staying and tore it down the next day to see what blew. It was the same gasket. I rented a car and drove all over Daytona trying to find a new pump, but nobody had one, so I bought some gasket paper, made my own gasket, gooped the hell out of it with permatex, and reinstalled it. The car ran ok that night and the next day, but Sunday, as we were leaving to drive back home I started hearing a knocking from the engine and it got REAL loud. Not wanting to hurt my engine I rented a truck and trailer from U Haul (another $500 ) and towed the car back to Ft Myers. For a month I didn't even want to tear into the car to see what blew, but after pulling the engine down I went to turn the water pump pulley and heard a grinding. It was the water pump, not something in the engine ! When I pulled the back cover off of the pump the flat diffuser plate was deformed as you see it in the picture below. The spot welds had failed and the plate came off. However, I don't think it was all Ford Racings fault. Come to find out the pulleys I had gotten from Zoops were the wrong size and were overdriving the pump by about 50% instead of running the pump slower than the crank. Combined with my 4:30 gears that pump must have been spinning 4500 rpms when I was going 60 mph. So I killed it. I then found out a company by the name of RunneRite makes the correct pulleys for this application, so I bought a new short pump and installed the new pulleys. Since then I have put a bunch of miles on the car with zero problems. Oh, and Ford Racing told me to goop the gaskets up with sealant (that is the gasket between the cover and the pump housing, and to torque those two flat bolts tight. They leave them loose for God knows what reason, and they expect you to put sealant on that gasket. Hope this lengthy story helps you out. Don Here is what my pump looked like when I tore it down. And here are the two different pulley sets. The Zoops are on the left and the RunneRite set is on the right. You can see how overdriven the water pump was with the Zoops.
I have been runing one of those pumps for about 6 years now - no problems. But I was warned about impeller speed with the wrong pulleys. I have one of the no longer made Ford sets.
Wow Don that is exactly my problem. Ford racing says very limited warranty and dont contact dealer but call them directly. I did and NO ANSWER! I've had good luck with Summit too but I didnt try them. I took the pump and had it welded up (leak was due to plate grinding a groove all the way through housing) and ordered gaskets (94-95 mustang 302) and i am going to put it together without the impeller plate. I also got Zoops pulley and used the stock timing cover and a new damper pulley.I had a hell of a time getting pulleys and spacers to make everything line up and all I'm running is an alternator. Ive had concerns of the alternator overcharging too - maybe its all pulley problems. Would you be so kind as to measure your pulley diameters for me? I think you've nailed the problem. Thankyou so much everyone for the replies .
That "plate" increases the flow. Most of the 'high flow' pumps you buy for any motor have that added to the impeller.
Well, in my case it was driving at 60 mph (3000 rpms) for over 5 hours driving to Turkey Run that killed it. If the tach was reading 3000 the water pump had to be going at least 4500 from the measurments/ratio I calculated. Like I mentioned, since I dropped the rpms it has cooled well and not blown apart again. Doc, I am heading to my shop in a little while and will measure them for you and get back. As I remember, the crank pulley is slightly smaller than the water pump one, something around 5 inches I think. Here is the website for Runne Rite: http://www.runne-rite.com/ I think their pulley set was about $ 169.00 and they are polished aluminum (look black in the photos) They include the special spacer to get the crank pulley to line up with the water pump too. You mention you are running a stock timing cover, that concerns me. The setup I bought specified that a certain timing cover had to be used, so maybe you are not getting the proper channel for the water........just something to consider. Don PS, I agree with dbradley, don't eliminate that plate, it is needed for additional cooling. I would bite the bullet and buy a new pump, in fact that is what I had to do.
Measured my pulleys (o.d.): waterpump is 4 1/2" zoops, crank is 6 1/2" stock. The channels seem to line up fine - gaskets fit good. I'm gonna try it without that plate - it cooled excellent before and this will make flow more like stock but I think it will be fine. If not I'll get the runne-rite set up - getting good at tearing this thing down unfortunately. I agree that a racing pump ought to handle 4500 rpms - If I had 4:11's I'd be running that at 60 mph instead of 3000.
Doc, I took some measurements and some pictures tonight that might help you out. The Runne Rite crank pulley is 5.5 inches approx. The water pump pulley is about 5.75, slightly bigger than the crank one. There are two other components that come in the kit, one is a crank pulley spacer that is about 5/8 inch thick and an alternator pulley that is 3 inches in diameter. I didn't use the alternator one because I wanted my alternator overdriven to keep the voltage up. The pulley I have on there is about 2 and 3/8 in diameter and my volts lay right at 13 or so, right where I like it. I think if you continue to run that big crank pulley and small wp pulley you are going to keep blowing out that gasket. It simply spins it too fast, especially on long drives. There is also the possibility that it is pumping the water through the block and radiator too fast to efficiently remove the heat. The first time I buzzed my engine to 6500 I got that seeping out of the first pump. You figure, it must have been going 8 or 9000 rpms and they just aren't built for that, regardless of being a racing pump or not. BTW, here are the correct part numbers for the short V belt pump and the corresponding timing cover: WP---------------- M-8501-E351S Timing cover-------- M-6959-D351 The required Ford Racing Damper is M-6316-A50 (81-93 302) or M-6316-C351 (pre 81 engines) Here are a few pictures of my setup for reference. Hope this helps and hope you are done blowing your gasket. Don
Thats quite a difference, guess I'll be ordering a set of those today. I'll talk to them and hopefully wont have to change the damper. What did you use for alternator brackets? I had trouble lining that up too. Your enginr bay looks like you never drove it - nice. Really appreciate all your help.
Quick correction. The Ford timing cover is M-6059-D351. Don had a little typo there. Info about the setup can be found here. You can also purchase the short pump from Stewart Components here. At least that is where I got mine from 10 years ago. Stewart pumps are usually about $70. At the time they told me they made the pumps for SVO. I bought the single pulleys from SVO at the time. I never did buy any special timing cover though, just used the stock one. Recently my pulleys started slipping though. I have found with aluminum V-groove pulleys once they wear a bit they go to **** and no matter how tight the belt is they don't work well. I wish someone made serpentine pulleys with the proper offset but I have never seen any. For the alt I just used the stock bracket and made a small space to adjust the alt where it needs to go. For the alt I just used the stock bracket and made a small space to adjust the alt where it needs to go.
Jay, thanks for that correction, you are correct. That's what I get for typing at 3 am. Good info on those Stewart pumps too. Doc, I am using an alternator bracket setup from Summit, it is their part number SUM-420104, and I had to modify it a little because it was made for the standard length pump, not the short one. The modifications were not all that bad, I think I flipped the unit over, got some different longer bolts to mount it to the water pump, cut down the adjustment rod and retapped it for the heim end, and used some different spacers...........just small stuff like that. It is chrome plated aluminum and a pretty nice piece. I also turned the main mounting bracket upside down because it just fit better that way, but I think I had to oblong the outside mounting hole a little to line up. I just had to keep playing with it until it fit the pump setup it was never intended to fit. I think you are being very smart in ordering those correct pulleys. I know it is a little hit financially, but there is nothing worse than driving a car you can't trust. Since I made that change and got mine right I have taken quite a few long trips and don't worry about the pump eating itself up any more. I feel confident in it enough that I am planning on driving it to Daytona again in November (250 miles), but I am going to get rid of the 4:30 gears and put something in the 3:50 range in for that trip. In case you have any more questions and I miss this thread, please feel free to PM me at any time. After all, we Ford guys have to stick together. Don
Thanks guys - great help. I'm running a t5 and 3:80 gears and turns 3000 at 60 mph - kinda wish I went with a little less gear. What ****** are you running. I'm running a GM alternator - I guess you gotta toggle the bracket some no matter what you do.
Something doesn't add up there. Most T-5's have any where from a .63 to a .86 5th gear. With a 3.80 gear you would have to have some really short tires to see 3000 RPM at 60. Even a little 24" tire with the .86 would only spin 2745 at 60. You'd have to have like a 21.5" tire. Confused
Yep, that is WAY off. I have 4:30's with a 29.5 inch tire and no overdrive (3 speed stick) and I am cranking 3000 at 60 mph. Every 1000 rpms is 20 mph on mine, checked with a GPS. I used to have 3:70's in it with the same transmission and I think 60 mph was something like 2400 back then. Don
I forgot to mention that my alt uses the stock alt bracket on the bottom as well. A quick tip. For mock-up I just use about 8" of redi rod (9/16" I believe) that the alt goes over. Put a straight edge across your crank pulley and adjust the spacing of the alt so the pulley all line up. Measure the distance from the alt to the head and make a spacer. I used some regular round pipe I got from a steel place. It will be a little oversize but it works fine. I did the same thing for the other two bolts as well. Because the alternator is farther back you should be able to just move the lower bracket to the front of the alt mounting tab instead of behind. There will be about 1/4" clearance from the alt fan to the bracket but it all fits.
Good tech and very interesting info on the W motors but I have several 351w motors and just use what came on them and never had any over heating situations. I try to always stay away from special applications due to possible break down on the hiway and then your screwed. Non the less I got some knowledge out of this thread--Thanks for all the pictures and explanations
Many stock pulleys overdrive the waterpump,and the voltage regulator should control the charging system.
I agree with you Ray, I like to use parts that can be bought at any auto parts store when you are hours from home. I ran a stock pump on this car for years until I built the stroker, but I was limited to using only very thinline electric fans that had no kick to them. That was why I went to the short setup to gain an inch and a half so I could run a big SPAL fan. In hindsight, I wish I had bought the Snow White kit. I saw a car at Billetproof that ran one and it is a very short, compact setup. I think what scared me away was wondering if I could get the Opel Kadett water pump they utilize in their kit, but I guess they are available or they wouldn't make the kit. We Ford guys pay the price for our loyalty as they are pretty long and have the front oil pump sump to deal with in swaps. But I sure do like em. Don
Doc, I found this picture of my engine before I reinstalled it after putting on the Runne Rite pulleys and new wp. Might show you how yours will look and line up. Don
I'll have to do some checking on the calibration of my tach and speedo. I'll let you guys know but its gonna be a little while until I get my pulleys and get this put back together. I bought a universal alternator bracket somewhere which is pretty stout but I made spacers from a nut and a 1/2 " socket. (they dont show but were exactly the size I needed.) Very purdy mill there Don. We do pay for our Ford loyalty - in $ and clearance problems . At least the distributor is in the right place.
Well got my new pulleys. Hope it makes a difference cause it was a pain to get everything lined up again. I ended up with 1/2 in spacer on damper pulley and milled .20 off the mounting face of the water pump pulley - think its good now.
Took it out and ran it 25 miles or so. Changed to 13 lb cap, under drive pulleys, and left the plate off the impeller.No leaks and temp was even lower than before- about 130 and my alternator is now showing about 12.5 volts on the gauge, so I guess every thing is better.
Thanks - I'll have to watch that. I was worried before because it was running close to 15. May have to put other pulley back on although seems like regulator should take care of either scenario.
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