My first post here on the HAMB, but saw a bunch of posts on cycle cars and a few Harley powered Ts so I hope I'm not stepping on too many toes. Last year my girlfriend spent about £3000 on fuel, even driving a reasonably efficient Toyota Yaris. And I reckon I can build somthing that'd be cheaper, less thirsty and a sh*tload more fun. Here in the UK we got a bunch of rules governing homebuilt cars and trucks etc, and just the paperwork adds up to about £600, before you spend £200 on tax every year. To get around this I'm looking at a three wheel 'rod, all hand built and really light weight, boat tail rear to keep it aerodynamic. I'm thinking somthing like this (without the f*ck off big caddy engine!) with a single rear hidden under the 'tail: http://tinyurl.com/5u4bm2g. (Anyone know who owns this? I don't normally go for the channeled-to-the-ground thing but this is looks awsome!) If I want to get the cheap motorcycle tax and stuff, I have to keep the empty weight under 450kg/990lbs. With a space frame ch***is and aluminium skin (like the Ralph Schenk streamliner) and a light weight motor (still looking into this - I'd like somthing old tech but cheap) d'ya think it's doable? Where can the big weight savings be made? Your help and experience greatly appreciated.
I think you ought to go for it. I've sketched plans for a 3-wheeled roadster on the backs of envelopes and napkins, trying to find the proper balance of form and function, and it's not happening for me. When you're designing quite a small car that will function as a sports car and daily driver as well as a thing of beauty, you have taken hold of the greatest challenge imaginable. Colin Chapman did as well as any ever have. Have you gathered any parts? Got an old Ford sidevalve or BMC Mini laying around?
I don't know why you couldn't use the back half of an old motorcycle for the propulsion unit and weld that to your frame? I've thought about this,too, and that's what I come up with.
Build a space frame, similar to the Lotus Super 7. Light, without being real flimsy. Search for "Locost", lots of people building modern versions. Bike motor in back would be simplest, if you can live with no reverse gear. Scoops on the sides, and electric fans will handle cooling. Or an aircooled VW motor up front. That would give you reverse.
Got no parts lined up yet - I'm trying to get a good idea of whether or not it's possible to get it under the weight limit. The only part I think I am decided on is the final drive and disk brake from a GL1800 Goldwing (gotta have a rear wheel drive!). It looks like with a suitable adaptor pretty much any car wheel will bolt up to it - no shafts and twin sided swing arms etc. I could fabricate the swingarm myself. As for power, been looking at motorcycle engines for the weight limit, but I want somthing oldish tech (carbs etc, would prefer to avoid computer controlled ignition) that I can play with. A Honda CX500 is a bit too modern but reasonably priced, a Honda Pan European could net 120hp which could be fun in a small car, if I could bear to put somthing that modern and hi-tech into it. Really need a shaft drive engine though. Also keen to avoid the Morganesque V twin out the front look (they're awsome cars, but there's quite a few kits for them and I want somthing a little different). Pre unit Triumphs are beautiful but too expensive. Transmission would be the ordinary bike transmission hooked up inline to a Ford Type 9 trans (this would be a 45lb penalty, but give me reverse and an overdrive). Ten forward speeds and five reverse? My plan so far is steel space frame with hand formed aluminium panels made to look like an A/T tub with aluminium boat tail. Duvall wind shield and seats that get you really low in the tub, like a re***bent bicycle.This would allow me to keep the body and shield really low, and maybe even give it a soft top for the rain/better aerodynamics. Front suspension would be independent, but using transverse leaf springs (like a corvette rear end). I've seen a photo from the forties where one guy built transverse leaf spring IFS set up, and really liked the look of it, plus with only three wheels I kind of need a bit of lateral stability, so not sure if a beam front end would work. Rear suspension would be a leaf sprung swing arm. Friction dampers all round. The biggest challenge I see is getting it all under the weight limit. Lotus 7s are built similar and are about 1000lbs, most hot rods are double this. I'm hoping building it like a P-51 Mustang might help. . .
How much mpg were you looking to get? some new cars are getting 85mpg. Aircools arent great for mpg. plus you gotta think about safety and comfort if this is something you drive a lot.
I'd be happy with 70mpg (uk), which I think is realistic given the aerodynamic advantages of its small size. I may also be able to add an LPG conversion which would make things more like 90-100mpg in terms of cost. Completely agree on the air cooled front - I think liquid cooling has the advantaged of both higher power density and efficiency and more convenient packaging for a more aerodynamic fuselage. In terms of safety, that's one of the reasons I think weight is an issue - I want to use a full spaceframe/rollcage type construction. There are two places where I think safety is an issue - I can't use airbags, a huge advantage a modern vehicle has, and the other, is the small profile of the vehicle would make it difficult to see. This latter one is a major concern - perhaps the full time headlight approached used by motorcyclists is the way forward on that front. Having said all that, my only car and daily driver is a '60 Belvedere, with drum brakes, no crumple zone and no seat belts (illegal to fit lap belts in the UK and very difficult/expensive to fit three pointers). I think driving this oil tanker has made me a much better driver, so in a position to better avoid an accident than sombody brought up on traction control and abs (case in point was me noticing a potential accident a few cars ahead and braking before other drivers. A guy behind me and a lane over had been caught by surprise and ended up nearly involved in it). I've had it if somthing does go wrong though. I by no means expect to beat the OEMs at this game, but I have the advantage of designing a car for me, and not a m*** market. And I am willing to compromise certain things that the oems could not, such as cupholders, cd players, rear seats, doors (hop in style), leather interiors, design for m*** production, electric windows, trunk space etc. The SMart car is probably the closest thing on the market at the moment, but is optimised for two hours a day of city driving (light weight for stop/start and short length most important), whereas I'm after two hours of A/B-roads (low drag for high speed cruising). Also, since I'll be spending 1-2 hours a day in it, I'm very keen to enjoy the experience. At the moment it's fun to play with on paper, I'll try and upload a few sketches during the week.
Well, an auto-mobile weighing in at 3000 lbs., and piloted by a bird, is certainly going to consume more petrol that a much lighter, cycle-powered rig...Seriously though, Go For It! It's surely to be more efficient...will be a damn sight more fun...and produce a jolly good sound. Maybe even like the ****** bombing of London (WWII), if your timings off enough!
If your gonna' use a Gold Wing swing arm, suspension, rear hub and drive shaft etc., why not just use the Gold Wing engine and ****** too? As for a reverse gear, I've seen a few motorcycle-based three-wheelers that use a 12volt automotive starter motor connected to the rear wheel, via a gilmer cog-belt drive to provide reverse. Mart3406 ===========
Some of the later Goldwings had reverse. IIRC, the trans is part of the engine case, like most Japanese bikes. Air cooled would be lighter, water cooled probably more practical.
An exposed engine would look a LOT better if it was air cooled. http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2010/11/08/morgan-makes-the-super-sports-three-wheeler-official/ http://www.morgan3wheeler.co.uk/home.html
Are you pre-converting km/L to mpg? If you are speaking of mpg, as we use here in the US....I hate to burst your bubble, but you will never see 70. Right now I only get about 42-44mpg out of an aerodynamic fuel injected 600cc sport bike weighing in under 400 lbs. There is no way in hell you will add more weight, with a bigger engine, and get more Some of the carb'd Goldwings have reverse already, but even with their over drive, and around 900lbs they dont do better than my 600cc.
If you use an old Harley Knucklehead or Panhead frame and engine and graft it to your car frame it just might work. Just be prepared to kick start the cranky old *******.
As I drive a Honda Pan America or as we call them here a ST1100 I think it would be awesome as a beginning for the type of car you are describing however it does not have reverse. And as it was pointed out some older Wing have reverse as do quads a large quad set in back with a motorcycle front could also be do able. If I were to tackle this project I would look at the Suzuki Metro car as a donor as it is front wheel drive I would use only the the engine trans and front suspension as it has reverse and they are relative light weight (I have one for an Ultralight airplane engine) also can be had with auto trans so that might make linkage easier. With the Zuk I would front drive it and tow the rear wheel handling would have more smiles per mile than you would believe.
Sounds like you want to build something that is really close to a 3 wheel Morgan. Reverse on a bike engine can be solved. There are reverse boxes for sale for racing cars with bike engines ( expensive...), I'm almost completely sure there is a box like that on a early DAF ( might not be as hard to find where you are at compared to finding one here ), and some builders have hooked up a starter to the drive chain to be able to reverse the vehicle that way.
..........So 3 wheels, Boat tail, motorcycle engine, UK...........? Sounds like a Morgan to me. I think they make a replica kit of those too.. hmmm a hot rod Morgan. now my 3 wheels are turnin.
Alot of motor cycle gearboxes have reverse. There's a guy in Tucson that had a three wheel motorcycle project...he ran the moto junkyard. anyway he had all kinds of plans and drawings for these things...If only I could remember his name.
Hi guys, thanks for the replies, I was referring to 70mpg in uk gallons, think thats about 55mpg (us). There's a kit over here based on the 2cv called the Pembleton that's very similar in spec that get that kind of mileage, admittedly they're only about 600cc too, and weigh in at about 800lbs . They do have extremely small frontal areas but I reckon I can improve the Cd to offset that. I haven't written fwd off altogether, but I am quite keen on the more traditional rwd approach - daft romantic notions about stepping the back end out like a Morgan on a VSCC hill climb! I originally thought of using Gl power (sound is awsome, and the reversible starter motor is handy), but they weigh in at around 240lbs and don't package so well for front mounted engine. Trying to get info on engine weights for other bike engines but it's difficult. Anyone know what an ST1100 engine weighs in at? Harley engines = bankrupting expense here in the UK, they were my initial choice when I started looking at powerplants a while ago. I'm interested in the Suzuki engine - brief search suggests it weighs in at about 150lbs? I'll have to figure out what they came in in the UK - I always find fantastic stuff and things I'd like and then they turn out to be only sold in the States or Australia. Dunno much the motor but at that weight I'm interested. Some of the ecomodder guys use the metro as a basis for hypermile vehicles, adding boat tails etc. http://metroxfi.com/ I guess the figures can be taken with a pinch of salt. I'm after a completely different machine anyhow so it's not so relevant. As I said before, keeping the weight down is the hard part, that metro engine might go a long way to helping though.
It sounds a lot like a Morgan, but imagine it a little longer and with a chopped 32 grill, and motor hidden under a hood. Ok, sounds more like a Morgan F-4 now . . .
Reverse can be got around a few different ways. The inline reverse boxes are expensive and 'apparently' not too reliable. Electric reverse is another option. Some guys also have first gear replaced with a reverse gear (done with epicyclic gears or somthing, doesn't sound cheap). Using a non unit engine mated to a car box is also possible (Harley, Guzzi, BMW etc) but limits the choice of engine. Ural sidecar bikes (BMW ripoffs) I believe often had four speed reverse boxes but they must be pretty rare.
There are a few Hayabusa powered Mini's around on the net and they use an electric motor for reverse. Might be worth doing a search. I also think it's funny that they think you use Km in the UK. Where do you think the mile came from! And of course the gallon is 8 pints but our pint is 20 Oz!
If a Ural is rare, it deserves to be. My brother had one, and it was complete garbage. ( yes, it did have reverse ) I wouldn't even use parts off a Ural.
I see that you are wanting a three wheeler, but these legend cars are cool and I have seen them street legal in the US
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