Help with unforseen problems - motor is moving

Rubber motor mounts,with a solid tranny mount,
risks breaking the transmission case.It has happened.

How about a heavy steel cable, instead of a solid panhard link ?
It would allow the engine to vibrate,but limit it's movement front to rear.
Make the moubts eccentric,so you can adjust the amount of slack.

 

too high tech.grimmy needs a hunk of chain on there...

 

i think it was 1940 that ford started putting rods from the front of the transmission back to the center crossmember, ford called them anit-chatter rods i think...the purpose was to keep the engine from moving around when you pushed the clutch in and out and help stabilize it so the clutch didn't chatter

i see no reason why these couldn't be adapted or some sort of rod fabricated

 

Hurst used the same Ford style donut mounts on their Chevy adapter mount. They sold an L shaped clip to be used when installing an overhead in an early Ford chassis. This clip replaced the anti-chatter rods used in the early cars. The clip slipped over the front mount stud. The leg of the L was tapped for a bolt that could be tightened against the side of the mount to limit forward travel. It's a super simple bracket to fab. You should be able to dial in your desired location and leave it be. I'll take a picture when I get home.

 

An anti-chatter rod (or rods) would have to have some give at each end to allow the engine normal side-to-side movement. Maybe try using some hard polyethylene sway-bar end link bushings on both ends? That'd make it adjustable, allow side-to-side movement, and prevent lengthwise movement.

 

try two big flat washers on each mount biscuit and forget it........

 

Hurst anti-chatter gadgets are what I would try first, because you can make them and put them in with zero expense and maybe 10 minutes work, and they probabaly will not get in the way of anything else, since they are tiny and compact. I have never used them myself, but they were for many years the standard cure for this exact pronlem on engine swapped Fords lacking any place to install the stock rods. They essentially solidify the mount bolt position, preventing the bolt from tilting as it must to allow motion fore&aft.
Since the engine mount department at Hurst stopped answering their phone before you were born, here's the recipe: Cut off about 2" of thickish steel strap maybe 5/8" wide, drill two holes, stick the end of it into the crack between your garage door and the jamb, and bend it 90 degrees. If you bought a strip of steel and a cordless drill at home depot, you could have six pairs finished by the time you got to the head of the checkout line--installation is just remove nut at top of mount and drop it in. I think you have '39 mounts that use 4 of the same mount at front and rear, so use 4 of them for extra insurance and let us know if they work. Repro motor mounts might be too soft--originals are closer to hockey puck specs. I have a pair of Hursts, and can send you exact dimensions.
If this doesn't work, next step would depend on your space problems. Either Ford type rods, which can run forward or aft (39 Mercs went forward to front X member stock) and can easily be fitted to your 8BA by a simple drilling in the Ford location or otherwise installed if space problems so dictate.
Another way would be a beefier approch to the way Hurst dunnit: Make a big flat plate wider than mount span (either for front or rear mounts, depending on what you can reach), cut it so you have an ear reaching each of the two mount bolts, and bolt the straight side to the crossmember at mount level and bolt the two ears in under that top mount nut. This solidifies the movement of the mount bolt, probably much more tightly than the little tab things.

 

This is a Hurst Ford anti-chatter bracket. Your clutch may not chatter but every time you push in the clutch the motor trys to move forward on the mounts. It's made of 1/4"x1" band iron. The bolt is a 5/16 std. The long side measures 2 1/8" o.a. The short leg is 11/16 o.a.



This is how it's used. The bolt is tightened against the foot of the pump to stop any forward movement. Pretty basic but effective.

 

put this in tech.

 

They are an example of awesome simplicity in design--they probably made Henry roll over in his grave when he saw a three cent solution to a two-dollar problem...

 

They are an example of awesome simplicity in design--they probably made Henry roll over in his grave when he saw a three cent solution to a two-dollar problem...[/QUOTE]


Now, has anyone here actually used the things? Do they actually brace that bolt enough to hold against the clutch load? The price for deuce steady rods may be dropping soon...

 

Ditto.

Build some and be our guinea pig.

 

I used them on a AV8 I built in high school. Damn clutch would chatter a little in 1st but a whole lot more in reverse. Put these little beauties on and what do you know, no more chatter.
I was 16 at the time and an old 70 yo made me a set, told me how to install them. Went back to pay him, told him how good they worked, he muttered something about youngsters having a lot to learn, turned around and walked back into his shop. Wouldn't take a dime, just said "maybe you can help someone else with the same problem". Lesson no. 2,749 in hot rodding. Priceless.

Frank

 

BTT...Archives???

 

I'm with the simple fixes these guys have all come up with. I'm curious though as to how much room do you have at he back of your motor? Can the motor itself move back at all? I'd probably doubt it since you're so close to the bolts to start with.

What about adding the spacers that were mentioned earlier? I know that when rubber mounts are used, they will settle eventually and cause clearance issues. Something you might look for are GM body shims. They can be thick or thin, and if you came up with a handful through a trip to the salvage yard, you'd be able to just loosen the mount bolt and jack up the motor, slip'em in, and lower it back down to check clearance. These'd be easy to mess with since they are horseshoe shaped and have a 'handle' on them as well.
If you motor is rocking to one side, you could even add an extra shim or 3 over there. Say 3/16" or 1/4" worth on one side, and 1/4" to 5/16" on the other.

Its up to you, but I've got a handful of these shims out in the garage since I never throw anything away when it comes to nuts, bolts, and washers when I'm rebuilding something. You never know when you're going to need'em. PM me if you think you might be interested in these washers.

 

Now, has anyone here actually used the things? Do they actually brace that bolt enough to hold against the clutch load? The price for deuce steady rods may be dropping soon...[/QUOTE]

Looks like the problem is solved, but to me it looks like an afterthought in design. I think a set of chater rods with hiem joints at the cross member is ideal. The effect is the same as radius rods being somewhat at the center line of the engine they would allow excelent rotational motion ( at least as much as those biscuits move) and eliminate any fore and aft movement, besides they are hidden from view. Just thought I would add my 2 cents.

 

I can think of a few things that MIGHT apply, and maybe not..

Long ago I had a Rambler with a torque tube drivetrain. In the high school shop I put in a later AMC 258 six cyl that I hopped up to beat small V8's. Ported head, valve seats enlarged to fit cut down Chevy valves, 3.90 gears... I even modified the syncro "tab"s inside the tranny where they would still "syncro" unless I pushed the column shifter really hard, then they would slide right by and become a quick-shift crash box when needed.

Stock, Rambler used a couple links that looked like dog-bone style flat bars with rubber bushings in each end. Those links took the forward thrust of the torque tube and kept the engine from being pushed off its mounts.
The links were close to being level so they allowed the engine and trans to wobble and shake like normal without shaking the whole car, and would PULL the car frame forward when the torque tube was pushed forward.
That worked great with the stock 199 engine, but when I hopped up a bigger Rambler 258 six (That is now known as the extremely reliable Daimler-Chrysler Jeep fuel-injected inline six- did you know that it was originally the 1965 Rambler 199 engine?).. anyway, the new V-8-beater would shove the fan right into the radiator when I would really put the power to it.
I ended up taking down the dog-bone power-links and replacing the soft rubber in the links with harder busings, and I also shortened the links a little bit to keep the engine and trans pulled back a little more.
No more chewed up radiators when I ran out to beat the other high school kids with the small Chevy V8s with my very UNCOOL Rambler Wagon.

Moral of the story-- I think you can prevent your engine from being pushed forward by having a strong transmission crossmember securely mounted to the frame, and then installing a couple links roughly paralell to the ground that will pull the car forward from the torque tube to the crossmember instead of thru the rubber motor mounts. The links will still float with the engine shake.
That's the way AMC did it and it worked for me.

Another thing I sometimes see in home modified cars is a clutch linkage that tries to push the engine off it's mounts.

It is often so tempting to run a linkage straight from the car frame to the throwout lever.
In order to prevent pushing the engine around, you will need to make sure that you have a bellcrank that floats between the frame and the engine/trans assembly. Usually the factories use a ball and socket type pivot to hold a tube-shaft in place and let it float between the frame and the engine when the engine shakes.
One end of the bellcrank pivot-shaft is held to the solid frame by a ball pivot and the other end of the pivot shaft is held strongly to the trans/bellhousing/engine assembly.

THE MOST IMPORTANT PART TO REMEMBER of the whole thing is that you need a floating shaft (known as bellcrank or pivot-shaft) between the frame and the engine/trans assembly that will not bind when the engine shakes around.
THE SECOND MOST IMPORTANT THING is that the lever that pushes the throwout fork in the bellhousing MUST be welded to the bellcrank (pivot shaft) at or near the ball-pivot that you have just attached solidly to the engine or bellhousing. That way, all the throwout-pushing will be confined to the engine/trans and will NOT push the engine off it's mounts.
The THIRD MOST IMPORTANT THING is to activate that new bellcrank by welding a lever close to the frame-end of the shaft near the frame mounted pivot ball.
That way when you push on the pedal, all the force will go into the FRAME pivot and will twist the bellcrank and will NOT push the engine off it's mounts.

Summary-- The clutch pedal MUST push against a lever mounted at the frame. The throwout arm MUST be pushed or pulled by a lever that is mounted securely at the engine/bellhousing/trans assembly.
The two are connected by a floating shaft that twists while floating between the frame and the engine.
I have seen so many linkages made with shortcuts that shove the engines off their mounts from a frame mounted pushrod going directly to the bellhousing. AVOID that method at all costs.

Another related topic...

NEVER NEVER NEVER mount the engine or trans with solid mounts.
Just because some super stiff tube frame drag cars use that method, it doesn't mean it works in "normal" cars. ALL frames twist. Repeat ALL FRAMES FLEX. If you mount anything solidly, it will be FORCED to bend and flex along with the car frame.
You do NOT want to flex-crack your $1000 tranny or engine block everytime you drive over an uneven road or gas station entrance. YOUR CAR WILL FLEX. You can't stop that.
You MUST isolate your engine and trans from all that twisting or they will get very warped very quickly causing all sorts of strange problems that you may not be able to figure out until the case cracks open.

I used to tear up rubber motor mounts all the time untill I started using my own links to help out.
You can use the drag-strip required engine tie down links for safety, or do what I did... Make a few dog-bone links with rubber ends, and mount them similar to the engine links you find on modern front wheel drive cars. This is in addition to the normal engine mounts. You WANT the engine and trans to squirm around to an extent, and the extra links need to allow that, but they will also limit extreme movement that can hurt other things.

EVERY linkage (throttle, clutch, etc) must be designed to transmit your signals to a shaking and moving engine without altering your "signal" (pulling the throttle when you don't want, or making for a very touchy clutch, for instance).

I hope this helps without sounding like I am preaching...

I have seen too many very tempting shortcuts that only add to problems that are hard to track down later.

Thanks

 

Another thing on the Ford Biscuit mounts used in all '32-48's: I think anything you can do that prevents the center bolt from tilting should do the job. That is what the Hurst thingies are up to...
Some kind of simple strap brace from the top nut over to something solid fore or aft from there would likely obviate the need for steady rods. Ford eliminated the rods in '42-8 with a new rear mount assembly that supported fore&aft as well as vertically.
There was also a simple aftermarket kit (consult any elderly JC Whitney catalog for pics...) that was just a Y of strap bolted to the bellhousing, a section of threaded rod, then a simple strap hook that hooked onto the X member. It was a common kludge on '42-8 cars with failed rubber in that new mount.