Projects Track Roadster 16 yrs in the making

WOW!! That roadster is dead on. Gorgeous.

 

I just heard from LB+1 via email. He asked how things were going and I wrote the reply pasted below.

When I have good news I post it pretty quickly; when the news is not good I definitely drag my feet.

***************************************************

I think I’m going to cancel the LA Roadster Show trip. I spiffed up the TR a week ago Sun to go to a local cruise in. It was our first fairly warm day (85 degrees) and I was in heavy traffic. The engine water temp went up a bit but nothing to worry about (200degrees); however, after about 5 or 6 long stop lights the engine died when I tried to take off after sitting at a light. I got the TR started (barely) and went to the next light and the Hemi was not happy so I pulled over and the engine died. This happened about four more times so I turned around and tried to get home. Finally I gave up as it was becoming harder and harder to start the engine. I had the TR loaded on a flat bed and hauled to my house.

The next morning I was able to start the engine (with priming) but it wasn’t happy. The plugs were pretty sooty.

Brett came by and we checked the compression and fuel pressure - both OK. We are pretty sure what happened. This was the first time the TR was in warm weather and idling in traffic. Also it was the first time I had driven the car with the HOOD in place. We are almost positive that the fuel was getting too hot and as soon as the FI nozzles opened the fuel vaporized and caused crazy air/fuel ratios. The Hemi was backfiring through the Hilborn air horns.

This problem arose because of one of the compromises I asked Jack to make. I wanted the EFI nozzles hidden and no modern fittings visible and so froth. The back of the engine bay is very crowed so we plumed one fuel line in to the fuel rail and then a short hose back to the fuel regulator, which is mounted on the bellhousing, not a full length line back to the gas tank.

In reality the fuel does not really circulate; rather it is pretty much trapped in the fuel rails below the valley plate. When the TR is moving there is probably enough air circulation to keep the gas from overheating. The combination of warm weather, sitting in traffic and having the hood in place pushed the temp over the limit.

The gas does not boil (vapor lock) in the fuel rails because the pump pressure is too high (50psi); according to Brett (who is the tech guy for Aeromotive the fuel systems company) this is one of the most common problems he hears about through the company’s tech line. I guess the gas is so hot that as soon as it leaves the nozzle the gas begins to detonate even before the intake valve closes.

Why is the system set up as it is now? The room at the back of the engine has to contain a distributor, fuel rail input line, the engine oil pressure sender, a wiring loom and vacuum lines. All of which make for a very tight fit.

Brett got out his catalogs and made a list of new fittings and fuel hose. I have received most other fittings (one is back ordered). Once I get ll the new parts I’ll re-plumb the fuel lines and hoses so that gasoline is returned to the tank. This should make a big difference in fuel temperature because the fuel will not “sit” in the fuel rail on a hot day. We’ll see. It’s going to be a bitch removing and replacing the distributor from now on.

Coincident with all this Brett had to have major surgery on his right shoulder and will be out for a short while. All in all I see the window closing for a trip to SoCal.

I was pretty bummed, when, for the first time, the TR left me in the lurch. On the other hand I do feel that we figured out the problem. Jack was the one who pointed out that the hood likely pushed the temperature over the edge. Obviously, I want to be able to drive the Maserodi with the *&^%$#©ƒ¥ hood in place!

I guess we are still just chipping away at the various gremlins and slowly learning what the various deficiencies are with the TR. As part of this continuing saga I’m beginning to feel that we will have to start over with the EFI electronic management system sooner rather than later...that is, if I really want the Hemi to run properly.


Compare to the folks in Joplin, my TR problems are pretty puny. One has to keep one’s perspective.


charlie
aka trakrodstr

 

Joplin - There has been a big drive here for them

 

Hope you can make it to LA roadster's show - would be great to see it in the metal

 

Hasty,

I appreciate your interest, but it doesn't look like the LARS is likely.

Last evening Brett and I put in a new fuel hose that established a continuous circulation of gasoline from the tank to the pump through the filters and pressure regulator, up to the fuel rail and back to the gas tank. No blind ends. I'll give the TR a run this weekend when the temp is hot so I can test whether the new plumbing makes a difference.

I think it is almost certain that the recirculating fuel system will make a big difference in extreme hot weather. Far more interesting to me is whether this "hot" fuel issue has been a source of perplexing EFI symptoms that have been so hard to diagnose.

My hope is that "hot fuel" has been an unknown variable all along and will help us understand why the Hemi runs fine for a few miles or so and then a few days later it runs poorly. The fact that the engine seems to run well when the weather is cool and degrade when the weather is warm fit with this symptom. We'll see. Keep in mind that the engine is NOT overheating; with a water temp between 185 and 195 degrees depending on the weather.

The job was super easy since Brett is a true hands-on expert; and fortunately there was room to snake a new hose from the fuel rail down to the Aeromotive regulator. From the regulator back there was already a return line to the tank. The whole deal took about 30 min.

More soon, I hope.

charlie
aka trakrodstr

 

Thats a pity (missing LARS), but I hope your troubles are over anyway.

 

I took the TR for its first drive since Brett reconfigured the fuel lines. The engine ran good as it was warming up and it idled fine. I began a loop through my neighborhood and the throttle response was very good and it seemed to be running well. After about a mile I had to stop at a traffic light and experienced no problems; the next red light however was not fun. The engine stalled and I couldn’t get it started. The ambient temp was about 80 degrees F and the engine was not fully up to operating temp. Fortunately I was able do coast back to my house as it was downhill all the way. I pulled the plugs and their condition was fine.

So, we may have cured the hot weather fuel overheating problem, but I don’t know because there is something additional going on. I’ve mulled the various pros and cons for several days and have made a decision. I’m going to start over with the engine management computer that operates the EFI. I did some web surfing and talked to two experts, in addition to Brett, who had experience installing and trouble shooting electronically controlled stack injection systems.

One of the two experts had experience with my present SDS computer system and according to him, “the SDS system is fine for regular applications but it will never control a stack injection setup”.

So I’m back to square one on the EFI. Brett and I will begin evaluating which product (EFI controller) will be the best for my converted Hilborns. I an not willing to change from the Hilborns. I want the early vintage look of the Hilborn stacks.

I have a set of original 50s vintage DeSoto Hilborn injectors. As you may remember there were a whole bunch of problems associated with welding the aluminum EFI bungs to the present Dodge units (if you want the gory details there are lots of early posts in this thread about the Hilborns). The DeSoto units are about 14% larger (throttle bore diameter) than my present Hilborn Dodge injectors, which will be an advantage. The DeSoto parts are not exact bolt-ons but can be modified to adapt to the Dodge Hemi cylinder heads without too much trouble.

We’ll see about changes in the hardware; but there WILL be changes in the electronics. The main challenge will be to hide the much larger engine management box, ignition box(es) and new harness; all of which are part of the computer upgrade. As you can imagine I am VERY bummed to have to throw in the towel on the present engine management system, but I have decided that I am now throwing good money after bad.

How long will this take? I’m not sure; but I have learned over the last 16 years to double or triple the “expected” time. So I am going out on a limb and predict that the new EFI system will be road tested before cold weather hits in the fall.

We will see...in any case wish me and Brett luck. Gulp!

charlie
aka trakrodstr

 

xxxx

 

Had a similar problem in a Corvette powered (TPI) XJ6 i built for my wife a few years ago. Every trick I tried added a few more miles before it died, finally got to where it would go several hundred miles till it died, but still died. Didn't get really fixed until I drilled a hole in one gas tank for a proper return line , and problem solved...Will be watching this, have a Kinsler injection that would be neat on my Iron Duke 4 cyl. but am really not looking foward to 15 more rounds of grab ass to get it right. Good Luck.

 

While you are working on the new injection, put a different manifold on and run a carburator. Carburators might even be considered traditional to some of us.. Just one, a 4 bbl, that way there's nothing much to have to screw around with.

At least this way you can run the car and work out any other new car blues.



I have helped crew on a couple of race cars with injection. Mechanical injected engines, although complicated, are logical when it comes to trouble shooting. And we the old crew guys can tune and adjust.

One car has an electrical controled stack injection system and has never run right, in my opinion. Maybe it's that the computer guys that tweek the system don't have experiance with mechanical injection? And are trying to get the fuel system to run like a Toyota? They seem to think every thing can be fixed with the keyboard and that the mechanical adjusting end is not important (as far as air gap on the blades and throttle stops and fuel pressure).

Good luck Charlie and get some miles on that car. It's too cool to be a hanger queen.

Frank

 

I give it 2 thumbs up, great work here, and go drive that beauty.....

 

LB+1

I hear you about the distributor heat issue and you my be right; but I am certain that we have other fundamental problems that are due to the EFI computer alone.

Yesterday evening Brett came by and we fired up the M. To make a long story short even though it was hot and I was driving in traffic the M ran fine.

Why you ask?

Because when Brett is sitting by me in the car and tweaking the EFI air/fuel setting I have TWO computers running the Hemi. The onboard digital CPU and Brett’s brain.

However, if he is not sitting there adjusting for heavy traffic and small throttle changes on the one hand... and then changing the fuel maps for wide open throttle...on the other hand, then the Hemi will always have tuning problems. It will run fine for one but not both of the two different conditions on the CPU “alone”.

In other words, no matter what values we set in the program we can never optimize the fuel maps for normal stop and go driving AND for WOT operation.

The only way I will ever “cure” the engine tuning problems (with a stack injection system) is to change to a more powerful engine management system.

One characteristic that the modern system all have in common is the absence of a standard distributor, so ignition issues will disappear once we convert to a new engine management system.


Charlie

 

OK - The Brett program can only be ran manually - Rally on -

 

You got that right!

I asked Brett if he wanted to live in the glove box, but he declined.

c

 

hugh,

Please give me a PM if you want to pick my brain via telephone.

I also have a suggestion. Go to EFI University at:

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There you will find a wealth of info and some nice folks. There is a pretty good thread on “stack injection” problems. The general consensus is that with the the upgraded FAST, ACCEL, Electromotive etc engine management systems, and a clever tuner/installer, you can have a enjoyable, streetable EFI stack arrangment that hauls ass.

For my money, your iron Duke 4 banger sounds awesome...do it!

charlie
aka trakrodstr

 

I know that this is sacrilegious to many here, but Weber carbs have everything individually adjustable in a very methodical way so that you can tune any engine to run any way you want. They have separate accelerator jets, pump jets, idle jets etc., etc. They really are infinitely adjustable, and because each adjustment is separate it doesn't mess up the other adjustments, so you can step through each item and change one thing at a time. If I was looking to make this rod perform flawlessly and get it driving really well in all conditions as quickly as possible I would consider mounting four Weber carbs. I have even run a Toyota on Webers and had it set up "to run like a Toyota", except that it had a great roar...

 

I guess it is rocket surgery.

 

No more like colorectal surgery, if you are on the “receiving” end (so to speak).

charlie

 

Well - you and the *M* surviving

 

Well it&#8217;s been a while. I got so disgusted with the TR that I finally bagged worrying about the *%$#@!* thing for a while. I had experienced several frustrating loops where Brett and I would make come changes and the TR would run well one day and unexpectedly stop running a day later. No correlations, no obvious hints, except that the trouble must be some intermittent electronic gremlin.

After the second fun afternoon sitting by the highway waiting for a roll-on car hauler I threw in the towel for about five weeks. NO car hobby stuff. Finally I began to do some Internet searching and so forth regarding recent EFI conversions of old mechanical stack injectors. Eventually I asked Brett to come by and give me some advice. The upshot of our lengthy conversations is that I (Charlie) am going to bite the bullet and have Brett install a completely new engine management system.

The plan is well underway and will involve a completely new wiring harness for an Accel CPU. The existing CPU and ignition will simply be bypassed completely or eliminated. Rob at Force EFI in Florida (http://www.force-efi.com/stacks.htm) is fabricating a custom harness for the TR. Brett and I spent about 10 hours threading a thick fine-filament (ultra-flexible) rope from the area just behind the gas tank (trunk area), through the floor pan, along the passenger side frame rail, upward along the bell housing to land at the center of the valley plate. Brett, labelled the rope with masking tape at each location where wire diverged and made detailed notations on the tape; he then sent the rope to Rob.

The ignition control module and the EFI-CPU will be mounted on a common plate, pretty much out of sight in the trunk. The new wiring harness will be largely hidden from view by running along the top of the frame rail, where existing fuel lines and the Accusump oil accumulator are presently located. The visual &#8220;contamination&#8221; will be minimal.

Pat at Mason Racing Ignition in Penn will fabricate the &#8220;distributor&#8221; (http://www.masonracingignitions.com/Contact.html ). The signal for the ignition will originate in a Vertex mag body that will house sensors for crank position and number one cylinder. This arrangement will restore the original &#8220;magneto&#8221; look I planned for the TR from the beginning. The exact ignition control module has not been selected.

As part of our attempt to get the old SDS system working we installed an Innovate Motorsport wide band O2 sensor; an identical sensor will be added to the other (driver) exhaust header. We will have the existing EFI nozzles cleaned and calibrated. I have modified the &#8220;valley plate&#8221; so that it can be removed without disturbing the Hilborn stacks, I also had it dipped in a chromate bath so that I did not have to worry about gasoline removing the finish. The chromate looks good with the other engine colors and plating. We will also trash the vacuum plenum that sat on the valley plate for a unit with a larger volume. I never liked the billet look of the soon-to-be-gone plenum.

The time projections are for the &#8220;magneto&#8221; and wiring harness to be delivered in September and for the TR to be back on the road by the first of Nov&#8230;we&#8217;ll see. The hope is that the new harness and devices will eliminate the mysterious electronic gremlins. Perhaps equally important is that Brett will have a far more powerful CPU to work with; also, the system is programmable via a laptop. Engine management will be based on volumetric efficiency and will feature much greater control of the air:fuel ratios. As I explained in a post months ago, Brett has installed and tuned other stack injector systems converted to EFI. He is confident that he can make the little Dodge Hemi sing. I sure hope so&#8230;.

Wish us luck,

trakrodstr
aka charlie

 

Well you are the CEO, I hope your choice of management, work's for the chosen eight.

 

LB+1,

I hope so too. I just could not face continuing to throw good money after bad.

When someone give you a lemon....

charlie

 

Hope it works out well for you. I myself would likely have thrown in the towel at this point and removed every wire and switch and sensor etc related to EFI and switched to carbs.

 

Sounds like a smart idea - I hope it works out this time.

 

Blue One,

Switching to carbs isn’t that simple. I have a set of Rochester 3x2bbls on an early Offy manifold and I have the 4bbl set-up that we used to test the D500 Hemi before we tackled the EFI.

What’s the problem you say? The hood will not clear ANY carb based system. The TR was designed to be used with the Hilborn throttle plates, which don’t have a manifold (plenum) and thus the assembly is MUCH (think >8 inches) lower than either the 4bbl or the 3x2bbls. Without the air horns the Hilborn’s don’t reach as high as the top of the valve covers. With the current air horns the two front stacks are about 1/8in below the hood sheet metal. (For road use I should probably get some air horns that aren’t as tall).

Ahhh, you say...just cut a hole in the hood and put on a scoop. To which I say — Jack Presse and I spend over two years just deciding on the shape of the TR’s nose (hood, grill and it’s surround). We made drawings and Jack carved a number of full-scale foam mock-ups of front ends, before we finalized the shape and construction began.

From day one (over 16 years ago) I was determined to have a clean, integrated recreation of an imaginary 50s TR. I love the appearance and design integrity of my TR’s nose and hood and can not bring myself to have a hole cut in the metal and add a wart on the hood.

Basically, the nose, hood and grill are more important to me than the expense...what can I say? I would feel like I failed if we had to butcher Jack’s craftsmanship and destroy the integrated look of the TR. Of course, I could drive it without the hood, but that’s not a long term solution.

If I had known from the beginning what I was in for I would probably have had Jack adapt a cut down “regular” Ford Model A grill and used the Offy 3x2bbl set-up, which I have had for at least 13 years. But I wanted a track-nosed roadster and early in the build I finally found the Hilborns after years of searching. Little did I know what I was in for...

I can assure you that I thought long and hard about going the carb route, as you suggest.

Thanks for your post.

trakrodstr
aka charlie

 

I'm not sure if I have posted this before here, but this is a picture of a Weber based EFI conversion that looks pretty low to me.

The locost super 7 is not a traditional rod, but he totally scratch built it and it is hot rod ingenuity all the way.
I'm posting it as an example of a successful EFI conversion.

He did the conversion and it is talked about in his thread here.
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1586

He uses a megasquirt management system I believe.
It runs very well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhNUG3t3NRU&feature=related

 

Blue One,

Thanks for the info. I tried the first listed URL without success. I did get to see the Locost making a cold start with ease using the second URL.

I am aware of the Weber as an EFI setup. One important fact to note is that the Weber based EFI, as featured on the Locost, has a plenum and is therefore vastly different than my present ”stack” setup. To the best of my knowledge there is no Weber-type intake for a small Dodge Hemi, thus if I were to adapt an existing intake manifold I would have the hood clearance problems. Otherwise I would have to pay to have two adapter plates made to mount Webers, no small expense.

Further, if I chose to use Webers as a substitute for the Hilborns (two assemblies, one on each bank) I would have the added expense of buying the Weber bodies (or fake bodies) and so froth. At least the Hilborn stacks are paid for and are mounted on the the engine!

Have you seen Fran Olsen’s goodies at Fox Engineering?

Go to http://foxinjection.com/weber-efi-replacement.html

Fran has fabricated systems for Dodge Hemis and many other engines. Unfortunately, I did not know about his work many years ago when I began setting up the Hilborns. Indeed, Fran drove a D500 Dodge-Hilborn mechanical system on the street during the 60s!

I talked with Fran a bunch in the last couple of months, before deciding on my present course. It is much easier for me to work locally with Brett, but Fran definitely has a tremendous knowledge base. I did consider the Megasquirt route, but Brett has experience and lots of software for the Accel system, so....

For now, I will stick with the Hilborns as these are much more appropriate for a recreation of a 50s style track roadster.

By the way I think the Lotus 7, in all its derivations, is an outstanding, timeless automotive design. A good handling hot rod that knows no national boundaries; kind of like the “road racer” hot rods such as Balchowsky’s Ole Yeller II and similar cars.

Cheers,

trakrodstr
aka charlie

 

Laughing here about all the reasons not to - Let me say how ever I understand
keeping the M as is - Balchowsky said "We can replace anything with anything".

 

Hey I ordered a set of new pushrods that are not adjustable. One more variable out of the picture. The pushrods should be a little bit lighter to boot.

Not too much happening while we wait for the wiring harness and the ignition system.

I still hope to get in some fall driving, well see.

trakrodstr

 

Great post and super sweet ride any update ? this need to stay on top a bit!