I think I may have a disaster on my hands. I am working on my ermine white 62 Hawk. Close to full repaint. I really know not what to do at this point. Subsurface: Old ancient paint, most of it original. Had some old brush touch-up tube style paint on old nicks. Some spotsof the original finish were just ever so slightly age 'lacquer crazed', not noticable unless one really was looking at it obliquely with a light. It was in really excellent shape for its age. I've painted over worse finishes on a 5-year old car. Anyways, I used a pressure washer and super-clean (the purple degreaser) before any body work started on the car. Then washed it down with Naptha and a rag and scrub brush. Did my repairs and body work to the four fenders. Used Nason lacquer-type primer surfacer over my repairs, blocked and feathered it out onto the old paint. Basically sanded the rest with 320 grit paper in prep to shoot with sealer. Shot the epoxy sealer (DP-50). Had problems with a few areas of the old paint wanting to 'lift' and anywhere there was the old touch up paint and surrounded sanded area wanted to just slightly fish eye. A few fogged coats cover them, they covered. Did a flood coat and I thought I was okay for topcoating. Let it sit about 24 hours. Today attempted to shoot the color coat, single stage Martin-Senour Crossfire enamel with hardener. Anywhere I had the lifting or fish-eye problem originally in the sealer, it fish-eyed horribly in those spots and more areas even though the epoxy sealer was not fish eyed in those spots immediately before shooting the color. Grabbed an old hood and shot some paint on it, no fish-eyes. So that rules out contaminated paint, air or gun. Added a shot of martin-senour fisheye eliminator to the paint and tried to reshoot those areas on the car. It reduced the fish-eyes, but still left like little salt-and-pepper voids in that area. I quit at that point to re-group since I was only one panel in. I suspect the old ancient paint has some old silicone polish or wax embedded in it causing this. My fear is that I will have to strip the whole car to bare metal and start over, and basically loose all my effort of the repairs. And would there still be contimaniation in the little pits/scratches of the metal if I strip it with abrasive discs? I know not what to do. I have always heard horror stories of silicone contamination but this time it seems I am experiencing it first-hand. What should I do?
I would clean up the areas that are fish eyed, just sand them down good if you can. Then go back over it with a water borne primer-sealer. It will create a clean non-chemical coat that can be top coated easily. Pre clean with a good cleaner that is also non chemical so it won't heat up the lacquer. You might have to take some areas down past the lacquer to metal to clean it all up. You'll be ok with the water borne sealer to paint. Mike
Let it cure, wash it with a red scotch brite and comet. I believe naptha is petrolium product. Might be some of the cause. I put some vinyl graphics on a late model for a guy one time. He tried to help by cleaning it with naptha. You thought he had sprayed it with wd40. Nothing tried to stick. Try the cleaning. If it trys to lift again give it plenty of flash time and dust over it until it covers. Once covered put the final coat on it. If it has orange peal or didnt lay out flat where it attempted to lift just color sand it flat. Hope that helps.
I paint for a levying . I have ran in to evey thing . This is just my upinen ! Not seeing it . I think I wood sand the car down and reprime the hole thing with a 2 part primer sand and seal and paint . That is what I wood do. It sucks!! You need a baier be twine the old paint and the new paint.
I found an area about 4" long on one of my garnish moldings ,, it would not take paint. I primed it..primmer layed down nice..paint did not. I stripped it and sandblasted it (again) same deal.. stripped it sandblasted and acetone on the area..still did it.. primer never showed a problem..but the paint did.. i fuckin gave up
Can't hurt to just clean up the areas with the touchup paint, as others have noted, and try again. Even if you had to go to bare metal there I don't know why you'd have to strip the whole thing.
Get ahold of "pimpin paint" or "earl schieb" here on the hamb. They can steer you in the right direction.
Grammer indeed... Doesnt sound like fisheye to me, sounds like solvent lifting the edges of the old repairs. Sand the old spots, a few coats of water based primer, guide coat and wet block sand, then go at it again.
Fish-eyes are caused by contamination/residue that the paint can't mix with. The cause could be wax, silicone, oil, grease, water, animal or vegetable oil/fat, Brylcreem, etc, etc.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I had both problems - I am aware and know the difference between solvent incompatability and a true fish eye as caused by your list below - namely silicone. Lifting I can live with to solve, but fisheyes are a whole new game to me.
X2 Waterborn primer is your best friend in times like these. I use Dupont 210S, works great on problem areas!
If you're spraying enamel,just add some FEE(fish eye eliminator) to your mixed ready to spray paint and start spraying.If you're not going to strip it all off,then by all means use the waterborne primer and then when you're ready to paint use the FEE as a safety precaution.There is a chance that someone has already used it in the existing paint. FEE is a petroleum based product and somehow counters the fisheyes.I'm a painter,not a chemist,but I know this crap will work when nothing else works,and it doesnt take much of it in the paint.
Naptha contains Paraffin (yes like the wax), so its pretty much the opposite of wax and grease remover.
it sounds to me like you're mixing your paint too thick and it's not flowing out properly. this is a common mistake. also, when painting the color coat, i like to spray a light coat over an entire area then go back over it heavy. i found that if there's going to be a problem with adhesion the mist coat helps.
If it is silcone the only thing to get it off is bleach.I have had the problem with armor all If you do not get it all off it will come back!
I too think the naptha is the culprit. It doesn't cut the crap off the surface the way lacquer thinner will. I say let it cure, sand and spot prime the bad spots, wipe the whole thing down with a scotchbrite pad, then lacquer thinner on a clean rag. Dust a light coat of color and go forward from there. The fish eye eliminator will help in the clear or in the color if it's single stage but don't over do it. It will be prone to run if you use too much. I usually just add a 1/2 cap or so into the clear. Most fish eye problems are something simple in one of the prep steps.
Hey, It kinda sounds to me like you've an old Earl Schieb paint job on this vehicle Schieb use to advertise that they used GE silicones in their paint. Complete removal is the best answer, as any thing you could shoot over it to bridge the silicone will, in time, break down and cause the paint to pop. On jobs where I had fish eyes from wax or oil, a bath with tsp followed by two-three wipe downs with Prep-Sol and many old diapers, never old shop rags!
Is that not what the equivlant would be if it had been shot with a repaint with fish-eye-eliminator in the past?
Hey, That hasn't been my experience. A job that was previously shot with fish eye eliminator could be killed by good cleaning, prep, and one to two dry coats of primer or finish dusted over them, with long flash times. A Schieb job couldn't be killed off no matter how many rabbits you pulled outa the hat
I used to work in a cabinet factory. In an effort to eliminate fisheyes in their finishing systems, they banned the use of anything with silicone in it in the entire facility. Several hundred thousand square feet. Through research they had determined that something like 10ppm of silicone molecules could cause fish eyes.
I preclean with Turpentine,works best for me,started using it when we realized it was the only thing that will strip the Hardshell buffed in wax often sold to Customers by New car dealers
Show me the MSDS. Most contain a small amount of Naptha, but I have never seen one that contained any silicone.
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