Motor mounting question. I need a little help here guys.

Hey guys, Im building a 46 Dodge truck with a 360/727. I put an IFS under the front with a rack and pinion.

From what I know, its best to have the engine/trans as low as possible as long as it does not cause any ground clearance issues and the drive shaft is within a couple degrees of the rear end yoke. Correct?

So, with that in mind, if you look at the pictures you will see my issue. If I mount the engine in the position shown in the pictures, the drivers side engine mount will be in the way of the steering shaft for the rack.

In my mind I have a few options here.

I could change the type of engine mounts from the "spool" type to the "pancake" type (not sure if that would help at all.

I could build my drivers side mount with a hole for the steering shaft to pass through.

I could make solid mounts to the front of the engine block mounting pads, then the steering would pass under it with little or no issue.

I could raise the engine up higher so the shaft would pass under the fabricated mounts.

Solid mounts or try to use some stock type rubber insert style mounts?

What do ya'll think?

Oh, and also, the engine mounts are directly over top of the IFS cross member. Should I just build the mounts to weld to the cross member or should I build them and weld them to the frame?

Thanks guys.

CW2 Laine Stahr
US Army, Aviator
Ft. Rucker, Alabama

 

can you build a cradle that welds to the underside and inside of the frame goes under the engine to the other side of the frame with motor mounts coming off of it? like a K member?
You engine seems to sit pretty far back compared to the norm.

 

I could build a K frame for it. But I would think there is a better way, just not sure yet which way is better.

The engine is set back quite a bit, and I CAN bring it forward. If I bring it forward, it will have to move up about 4". Its set back like that for a couple reasons, clearance between the radiator and water pump pulley, clearance between the oil pan and IFS cross member. I can change to a rear sump oil pan if needed and then bring the engine forward.

Hmmm.... maybe thats the best idea.... back to the shop to measure and eyeball some more.

Anyone else?

Laine.

 

Here's a couple pics of some mounts I made for my '48 Ford F-1 with a Mustang II and 350 chevy...

 

Hey Chief, Thanks for your service!

Here are a couple of mounts that I make for the EarlyHemi that could be used on your LA engine. Perhaps they would sit high enough to clear the shaft.




RLTW

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Lower is better for handling but personally I dont like the looks of a v8 sitting low in the chassis in an old car. I'd raise the combo up as far as the floor will allow.

 

Thanks for the advice, pictures and comments. I like that mount you made for that Shivvey motor. Looks simple enough and effective.

I have some similar to the ones on that Hemi, maybe I'll bolt them on the engine and see how that looks. Might work out better.

I just hooked the torqueflite up to the engine and slid it all in there as a unit. Turns out, I am going to have to take the "car" oil pan off and put an aftermarket rear sump pan or a rear sump "truck" oil pan on it. I'll try it with a truck oil pan tomorrow evening and see what happens.

I will have to keep it pretty low in the chassis, pretty close to how its sitting in the pictures so that the tail shaft on the transmission will line up with the rear end and not have any crazy angles. There is also a cross member that goes over the top of the trans tail shaft. Its located under the cab about 10" from the back of the transmission. I could remove or modify it, but if I can make it work, why change it.

The good news is, with it sitting so low in the chassis, I could put a blower on the dang thing and still keep the entire engine under the hood. Anyone have a small block Mopar blower manifold they wanna donate. ;-) Dont I wish.

Also, it appears that if I line up the "spool" type mounts centered directly over the IFS crossmember it will all work out just fine. The crossmember is 4" wide as are the spool mounts. The only modification I'll have to make is to the radiator. I'll have to move it deeper into the nose piece or have a custom radiator made. If the original will hold water I'll give it a shot.

Any more ideas guys? Nothing is set in stone yet thats for sure. This is my first 40's vehicle and my first MAJOR build. I have always been a muscle car guy. Figured I'd try my hand with a hot rod truck once. Im diggin it.

Laine.

 

How about something like this? You'd have to fab them, but it may be a solution.

 

That looks similar to the plan I have in mind right now.
With the Mopar "spool" type mounts being 4" wide and the IFS crossmember being 4" wide, I think I can sandwich the crossmember with two pieces of 1/4" flat steel, brace them up a bit drill a single hole through and put a bolt in.
I just gotta get the oil pan swapped out tonight and try again to get everything lined up. Should end up looking similar to what you just posted there 52pickup.
Im probably going to have to modify the original crossmember under the cab by the trans tail shaft so I can raise the back of the transmission up a couple more inches. Or, I'll remove it and make a new one. The current one goes over the top of the tail shaft. I will probably have to make one that goes under it. Sure would make the trans mount easier that way.

Laine.

 

Hey fellas, I pretty much have decided how Im going to handle the engine mounts now. Thank you for the pics and advice.

New question. There is a cross member under the cab (in the picture). It is to low and keeps the transmission tail shaft lower than I would like it to be. So, what do you think. Modify it so the trans will be able to move up higher or remove it and make a new one from scratch.

What would ya'll do?

Laine.

 

I would modify that one to fit the trans and use it for the trans mount, that way it's easier to remove the trans if you have to. That is if it's not too far back.

 

Thats kinda what I was thinking. I'll have to cut the "hump" up higher, then make a cross member to bolt to the existing one that holds the transmission mount. If memory serves, its within a few inches of the mount on the tail shaft, so it should be doable.

Laine.

 

That'll make it super easy to service if you ever have to drop the trans. Its kind of a pain to have to lift the trans to get the mount out so you can drop it, especially on the ground or side of the road!

 

For sure. Well, guess its time to fire up the plasma torch and the mig and see what happens.

Just wanted someone else to validate what I was considering is all. Many of you fellas have MUCH more experience with this stuff than I do. So its always good to get more opinions.

Laine.

 

Ok, plan B.. or C or D or whatever Im up to now.

After talking to my cousin who has been building drag cars and the like (think tube frame super gas cars) for many years, we have decided that its better to have the engine/trans sitting with the tail shaft a few inches lower than the nose of the crank shaft than to have the engine/trans level and have a 5-8 degree angle on the drive shaft. So, that said, I will leave the center cross member alone, run the trans tail shaft under it and the engine/trans will sit at a bit of a "front to back" angle.

However, the next "problem" is as follows:
The trans mount sits about 8" forward of the cross member thats under the cab. I can do a few things. Build a triangle shaped trans mount off the cross member. Or I can make a completely new crossmember in the correct location to mount the transmission. Or I could fab up an X mount for it.

Im sure the X mount would be the best. But, would a triangle type mount about 8" forward be strong enough? Sure would be easier.

Laine.

 

I'd set the motor where it looks the best and has enough clearance for the steering shaft, fan, rad. hoses, distributor, etc. Make sure you can remove the distributor from the engine.

Get the motor and trans. centered in the frame and level from left to right (as you're looking at the front of the engine).

You want the carb. mount on the intake manifold to be level. Side to side and front to back.

Get everything sitting right (wood blocks, vice grips, whatever it takes to hold it all in place) and make your motor mounts.

Then make a trans. crossmember. Making a bolt in one is worth the extra time it takes to do so.


That's the way I do it anyway

 

I agree Clutch. However, the problem is if the motor and trans is level, there will be a significant angle between the tail shaft and the pinion. Left to right level is no problem of course. So, it comes down to this decision. Make the engine/trans level and have a 8-10 degree angle on the drive shaft. Or, have the engine/trans tilted back a bit with much less angle on the drive shaft.

Which one is the lesser of the two evils?

Laine.

 

You have gotten some good advice here. Though I will be the first to say that I do nol know all there is to know about mounting the motor, I have mounted the MoPar LA motors in several projects over the years. I use the truck oil pan for the rear sump which will help cross member clearance. (If you go this route, do not forget the pick up tube, dip stick and dip stick tube.) To help with steering clearance, I offset the engine/transmission to the passenger side by 3/4" which is what Chrysler did in the A Bodies. I level everything side to side but I set the motor up at a 2 1/2 - 3 degree backward rake. This will help lessen the drive shaft angle and will level out once you get your final ride height assuming a typical hot rod rake. For motor mounts, I have used the mounts from Chassis Engineering. On the drivers side for my 36 Dodge pickup (Mustang II, standard rack, 318) I dropped the mount down so that the steering shaft would go over it and then used a spacer between the chassis mount and the rubber biscuit to get things back to level side to side. For a transmission crossmenber, I made a simple bolt in mount from 2" square tubing. The actual mount to the tranny is a mount for a late 70's - mid 80's Dodge truck. Once the tubular mount was made and positioned, I just welded some simple tabs to it for the bolt for the actual mount on the tranny. This is all in the "for what is worth" category and is offered as simply the approach I take in solving the issues that you are faced with in your project. Good luck with your Dodge!

 

I did a couple 318 swaps into mopars from that era. I like to keep the crankshaft centerline about where it was originally. Usually that means the centerline of the engine is about 3-4 degrees nose up relative to the top of the frame rails. The truck pan is a good way to get the LA engines to fit into old cars and trucks. Also the Dart exhaust manifolds help with steering clearance, and don't be afraid to offset the engine to the passenger side like Mopar did in many cars in the 60s-70s.

 

Thanks for the advice guys. I put a truck pan on it last night, that solved a few problems for me. The motor mounts will be a pretty simple fabrication job now.

The transmission mount however, Im still trying to decide on. Do I go dead simple and effective or do I go with over-kill and good looking. Guess tonight I'll make the choice and get to it.

I MAY move the factory cross member forward to the spot where the trans mount is at. Then I can just work off of it and be done with it. It will take a few mods to the original one, but I can make it work and end up with a "factory looking" bolt in trans mount.

Laine.

 

Put the motor where you want it and make everything around it fit, with in reason that is...

 

Thats what I'll be working on this weekend. Threw a monkey wrench in to the situation today. I picked up a 4 speed today. So, Time to change the plan slightly and mount up the manual trans in it.

Laine.

 

I vote for the simple effective bolt in trans mount made from square tubing. If you want to get fancy, make it a "K" with the legs bolting to the top and bottom flanges of the frame and still be completely removable. I would also leave the original cross member in place, it will help stiffen the frame.

Also note, the concern with the engine/trans is not with the crankshaft center line being level, but with the carb mounting surface being level. When the carb mounting surface is level (front to back), the engine crankshaft center line is about 3 degrees lower at the rear then at the front. As far as the u-joint angles are concerned, it is better to have the u-joints working an angle (equal and opposite) then for them to be straight. Max u-joint angle is around 15 degrees. Gene

 

I like the way you think Gene.

I seem to change my mind on things about every 4 seconds. I had just read pretty much exactly what you said yesterday!

I plan to raise the motor/trans about 2 inches from what I had initially planned. That will give me room for my motor mounts with little to no interference from the steering shaft. It will also give me more clearence for my exaust (block hugger headers) and it should just all around look better.

According to the math, the drive shaft angle will be right around 6-7 degrees and according to my digital level the engine will be at 3-4 degrees. Looks about perfect to me. I have to do a slight mod to the original cross member to raise everything up, but it should be no real issue. Just some time.

Thanks again. Time to get to work.

Laine.

 

just make sure the carb mounting flange is level and go to town. you can even offset the motor side to side to get the clearance you need. the mount need not be symetrical they just need to be functional.

 

Done and done. Top of the intake is .02 degrees tilted back. No worries there. Drive shaft angle is about 7 degrees down and 1 or 2 degrees left. Motor is offset to the right about 1.25 inches. Almost done with the trans mount, then, its the motor mounts.

I need an air conditioner in my shop. 107 in there today. Cant open the doors either, the gnats are HORRIBLE down here in LA (lower Alabama).

Thanks guys, once I get it all in there, I'll post some pictures. Gonna be sweet with that 833 4 speed in there behind my 360. Dont get me started on the clutch... no clue how Im setting that up. Hope I can do it with a hydraulic clutch.

Laine.

 

I love the 833! I picked one up for my unibody project, although it might end up in the bel air. I got the chevy version if your wondering.

 

I'll assume that you have the correct flywheel for the 360...

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Dont know yet. I have 3 flywheels sitting here that I havent looked at yet. Im a long way off from even being able to start the engine. In fact, the engine in the picture is not the 360 thats going in the truck. The engine for it is still on the stand.

I would guess you might just know where I can find the correct flywhee, or could help me identify the ones I have.

Laine.

 

Great info here...I'm about ready to mount my engine....I bought a pipe type crossmember with the motor mount intact....I bought it from a friend..I think he bought it from Speedway...I think once it's in I will add some gussets...my engine is a 1964 225 Buick V6...a pic is below...it's made just for the 225 Buick.....