Hi All, Got some rust problems on my 1960 Plymouth Belvedere (alright, loads of rust problems), including rockers, trunk lid and the subframe. I want to sort the rust on the subframe first, then I can build weld in subframe connectors to help with the rocker replacement. The rust is on the upper surface of the box section that the subframe is made from. Being an old mopar the subframe supports the torsion bars at the rear.It's also a unibody car. To fix this rust I gotta drop the subframe, I reckon if I drop it 18" or so I got enough room to cut out the old and weld in the new steel. I've never pulled a subframe, anybody got any advice? Is it better to pull the motor and then remove the subframe altogether? Any and all advice greatly appreciated. All the best, 60 Ply
Sounds like your best bet may be to pull the motor and drop the subframe and pull it right out. This way you can access all sides of the frame and make repairs as needed. Nothing worse than working around an engine or suspension when makeing these repairs. Don't underestimate the benefit of being able to work comfortably. droping the subframe should be straight forward as long as you don't run into problems with the bolts.
Hi SSleds, Thanks for the advice. Yeah - leaving the motor attached sounds ike a false economy. Got any idea on how long pulling the motor and 'frame would take?
I would not worry about it. Rushing always leads to further problems down the road. Here is my best suggestion and how I do it on a day to day basis. Take pictures... Lots of pics. Start taking things apart and lebel everything. Tape what have you. Take more pics. Move slowly and don't rush things. As things come off then put them in zip lock bags or screw hardware into its original spots. This will save time during re***embly. Do this even if you plan on replaceing hardware etc. Never throw anything out until the project is complete. I would probably start with removing the hood and engine then subframe. Good luck with the project.
The inner fenders and core support will totally unbolt on a '60 Plymouth, unlike a lot of other unibody cars. Consider taking the whole front clip off, then pull the motor. The front clip won't want to hang right without the subframe in the car and you don't want to risk damage. It'll make pulling the engine and frame a lot easier too.
My experience with Mopars is from the mid 60s on. Is the subframe you speak of separate from the floor pan, or attached to it? From the mid 60s on, Chrysler used the floor pan as the top of the sub frame so the sub frame was actually a channel with flanges with the top open, spot welded to the floor pan. If that is the case, you could cut the top open (cut the floor between the sides of the sub frame. Cut out the rust until you get to solid enough steel to weld to) and weld in a 2" x 3" or a 2" x 4" square tube (which ever fits the best) into your sub frame sides. Drop the tubing into the sub frame side rails until the top is level with the top of the surrounding floor pan and weld the tube to the sub frame sides. You may have to weld the sides of the sub frame to the tube from under the car if the sides of your sub frame is badly rusted. Then take some sheet metal wider then the distance of the flanges on the sub frame (or wide enough to get to good metal, ideally at least a 1/2" wider then the edges of the floor on both sides , and drill some 1/4" holes about an inch or an inch and a half apart in the center of the sheet and along both edges. You will be plug welding through these drilled holes onto your floor pan and the top of the tubing, be sure you have enough material to do this. Clean off everything to get to shinny metal and grind any high spots along the tube-sub frame welds. Debur the holes on the sheet metal. You want the sheet metal to be able to lay flat on the floor/top of the tubing. Hold the sheet metal tight against the floor and plug weld the sheet to the floor pan and to the top of the tube. This would be much simpler then removing the sub frame and you can do a short section at a time without concern of loosing the alignment of everything like what could happen if the sub frame was completely removed from the car. Gene
Hi Guys, Thanks for the replies. The subframe's a seperate self contained bolt on job made from mox section (or two C Channels welded together more like), so can't really do the work without dropping them. Thanks for the idea about pulling the front clip Squablow, I didn't even think about that. Yeah, that'll make things a lot easier. Any idea how easy it is to align everything when sticking it all back together? How much 'play' do you likely get when doing this kind of thing? I bet there's nothing more annoying than trying to put it back together and all of the wheels and fenders are pointing the wrong way.
I can't be sure about a 60 but we used to swap out the front subframe on slightly newer Mopars on a frame lift without pulling the engine or any sheet metal. They were famous for breaking where the torsion bar entered the subframe. The factory said not to weld them. 2 of us got one changed in under 3 hrs from drive in to back it out. A big stand under the front of the engine lets you drop the subframe and bolt the new one back in. 6 bolts IIRC and then it's just re***embly. It's always harder the first time but we got it down to an ***embly line. That did not include the alignment...that was a different bay.
I'll get the car professionally aligned after doing the job I reckon, but trying to find sombody in the UK familiar with Mopar torsion bar front ends might be a challenge. Anybody got any idea what gauge the metal on the front subframe is? Might as well get some steel in ready to do the repairs.
Would this lend it self to a swap to one of the later subframes with the leteral torsion bars, like they like to put under Ford trucks??? Just asking as it may be less work and give you upgrades like disc brakes, newer steering etc. Like I said just thinking.
I recently finished a 60 Belvedere for my wife and although I did not have to remove the sub, a lot of panel aligning went on because it had had a hit in the front in a previous life. We found a lot of factory shims in between panels so I think you have a bit of leeway for refitting panels in re***embly. Good to see another of these being saved......some say ugly duckling....others say 'wow..look at the shark! Here's ours....
Got any pics to post? Andy Bernbaum..Old Moparts...has a lot of nos and repro stuff for these .....it pays to ring them though, they're helpful on the phone but the website isn't the easyest to use.
Hi Amaverick, Sweet sedan, I've seen that one before, got a fair few photos of it. Love the grille, what's it from? What's under the hood? Here's mine: Big rolling resto at the moment. Need to do the rockers too which are a bit of a concern. Did you have to replace the rockers on yours? Big job?
It's bone stock with a slant 6 at the moment. When it comes to sorting it properly, it'll have a few mild custom touches, I'd like the Fury trim along the rockers and rear wheel arch and some cruiser skirts, a little pinstriping here and there, I may experiment with different grilles, all kind of bolt on stuff. All of this is second to getting it rust free and solid. Oh, and getting the slant to return good mpg, we're up to $10 a gallon over here.
Hi 46, A mod like that doesn't sit too well with the DVLA over here, I may have to re register it. Having said that, the rust isn't too bad, and I like that the car's pretty original. By the time I'd welded up new mounts and things for the motor and body I'd have fixed the subframe. Plus, getting parts here in the UK isn't so easy, aren't too many useful cars worth speaking of in junkyards over here.
Hey mate, I suggest you to check out Big M Automotive for parts. http://www.bigmauto.com/ The owner, John, is a great guy and has very reasonable prices and best quality! Ben
The grille is my own concoction....lotsa small drawer pulls and a sheet of perforated alloy painted black. LED indicators and park lites.The sills had been done when we got her, along with some other not very pretty repairs. I found the limits of my body skills quite quickly and a friend up the road finished it off and painted it for us. She's running the slope six with a two barrel carb and headers...really not that bad on the gas...our gas is a bit spendy too, NZ$2.06 per litre. Your beast looks to be in good nick all round.....I see you have what looks to be a good set of 'eyebrow' stainless, I ended up deleteing the front wheelarch moulding because mine were pretty beaten up and I couldn't find any good ones I have a pair of the dished optional trims that go at the bottom rear of the front wheel arch that are free to a good home. Keep us updated.
It looks a lot better in these photos than what she actually is - half a ton of filler can hide an awful lot. When it was last restored the body was blasted, and all the sand/rust left in the box sections, which have started to rot out. The doors too are well on their way, the bottoms of the skins and the frames are rotting through. I have a new set of doors in the states that need to be shipped, but the sills I'll have to do myself. Those pics are a few years old, they don't show the scratches all over the paint (I reckon a car cover had somthing to do with that. All the paint has since lifted off the trunk, so I need to get that done too. Still, it's not too bad, and I never learnt anything without doing it so it's a good excuse to learn bodywork and welding!
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