What to pay a qualified restoration employee

Yes sir! You nailed it!

 

I can guess the only people who are saying $25 an hour plus is too much are customers wanting a cheap but fantastic job and not business owners who have to babysit the less experienced to make sure the shops reputation stays intact.
And to those who think broom pushers should get $16.50 an hour one question.
Would you pay $10 for a Big mac?.
The world wants more for less plain and simple but skill should always be worth paying for.
My line of work is non related but I've employed experienced guys that aren't worth $20 an hour and also new guys that are worth a lot more.
The 'right' guy should become apparent during the interview and his pay will be something you can discuss as adults.

 

Some of you probably knew that I'd chime in. I'm the general manager of a busy restoration/custom shop. We do everything except engine/trans rebuilds. No machine shop level stuff. We're busy. We do pretty damn good and our customer's award lists prove that out if that's what someone's looking for.


Now that you know where I'm coming from, I think that there's a lot of generally helpful and enlightening comments to the topic. I tried to hire a trimmer 2yrs ago. I got 3 people to stop in and talk to us. None of them could develop a seat cover or a convertible top, or any pattern development work at all. All 3 of them said they could sew it up and "probably" install the stuff without too much "help". Yeah, I said the same thing you're probably thinking. All of them wanted from a low of $28.50 to a high of $32.00, JUST TO ****IN SEW!! I have 2 trimmers that can build from scratch and most of it comes out pretty ****in nice. I'll keep their pay rates private since some on here know us. It's a decent enough wage for the market here in Motown. And that's the key, it's DETROIT. On Long Island in NY I'm told there's only 2 shops qualified to do heavy American Cl***ics like Packards and Auburns, etc. Both of the shops are over the C note, 1 at $105/hr and 1 at $115/hr. I'm told both shops are busy and have a small waiting list, one of the shops has a small staff. I couldn't imagine getting that here but I can compete with that level of work where it counts.

You're damn right that this is a tough buisness. It's all funded on disposable income. Nobody needs any of the cars in this shop to live. Not a single one has real life-sized duty behind it. Over a million bucks in toy cars under one roof, and it's still a ***** to show a profit. It's nobody's buisness what my wage is as the general manager, but it's still not near what the position and performance is worth in other industries. I think there's enough to look forward to in the not to distant future so I'll hang for a while. Anyone with the will and skill to do all of it, and I mean the non-skilled stuff as well as the skilled, in this particular area and demographic, any wage in the high teens to low/mid 20s is probably average. Sure there's automotive positions that pay more, but not in this town. I was sought out recently by a head-hunter for a large OEM supplier. They sent me a message through the lovely Mrs. Highlander. "Tell him we'll start him a $14.75/hr. He's gonna make a ton of money on the overtime. Everybody's on mandatory 10rs and weekends too!" Now this is a major supplier/service industry to the OEMs. You locals know who it is by the wage alone. The duty? 10yrs expeience in metal fabrication and prototype/show level finish work. I graciously said "go **** yourself", but not in those words. What would you have said?

The replies here go both ways. Some with the idea that you should be happy to get work, and some with pay should reflect the level of talent. I earned my "go **** yourself" comment to the job offer a long time ago. Still I think that the region you serve has a lot to do with wage and hourly rate. I'll stop for now.

 

As somebody whose done alot of hiring over the last 10 years I have to disagree. A job interview is for the employer to determine if you the applicant are correct for the position that needs to be filled.

The potential employee's chance to "interview" the employer is at the time they are actually offered a job.

Nothing irks me more than a applicant who is more worried about what the job has to offer him, than what he has to offer as a potential ***et to my company...

Ok sorry for that little rant especially since I can't answer the OP's question

 

Sounds great, sleep and work my favorite two things haha

 

Now there are two sore spots on this thread. So, have you looked at the profits posted by the "Big Three" over the past 20 years? Is it OK for the CEOs and Upper management to make trunk loads, full of money, and the guys doing the real work to live paycheck to paycheck? When the automakers lost big time you heard alot about how much the autoworkers made and need to give up. When was the last time you heard of a large corporation making huge profits and offering the employees increases and better benefits. The stock markets and the people playing games with them is have hurt the economy, not the workers trying to earn a living and retire with a little in their pockets.
By the way, I am not a member of the UAW!

 

McDonald's pay minimum wage and look at the quality of service you get there! How hard is it to "hold the mustard" or count back correct change?

 

whatever you can bill him/her out at divided by 3 is a starting point. More or less than that depends on the area you live and how much you need him/her.

If you find the right person, pay him/her as much as they want. Finding the perfect person is nearly impossible.

 

Damn--wish I lived there--I would apply I'm still unemployed.

 

rule of 3 always works well...

for a 5 yr guy Id start em out at 25 an hour.... I have a really good body guy thats becomming a painter also and doing real well and pay him 20.


also if a guy working for you accepts sidework out from under your business, you do have the right to get mad.

 

Go to jack in the box and say you want 8 quaters worth of tacos... thats my timeless cl***ic....

I got so irritated with the LANGUAGE barrier here around houston, I asked for no pickles, yeah my ticket didnt say no pickles, came out with pickles, took em off and threw em on the counter and said here ya go... she didnt know what to think.....

 

Spot on. I used to work for a small company. I was paid 8.50 an hour to start to do disaster cleanup. It ****ed, was physically demanding, plus I had the boss running behind me telling me not to break this and that without lending a hand. I worked my way up to 10.50 an hour, or so I thought. I started noticing that my hours were shaved off, or my pay rate was less than 10.50. Meanwhile this guy buys his daughter a brand new car, his wife goes on vacation after vacation overseas, and buys yet another 80,000 RV. I quit, guy lost his one cleaning contract after I left. He burned way too many employees and couldn't find people to work for him anymore. When I hear people complaining about not finding any good employees I can't help but think of that guy.

 

this is interesting and helpful information. Thanks to all who contributed.

I find it rather amusing to see the two fairly obvious "sides" to this discussion...

management and labor.

 

Totally different to a stock market controlled company and although not unusual it doesn't apply to every 'Boss'.
I pay my guys 20% more per hour than most of my compe***ors and still find it hard to get people to actually show up either on time or at all.
Just because you pay well doesn't mean you get good employees.

 

I totally understand what you are talking about, but I wasn't adressing the corporate problems that you mentioned and they are legitimate complaints.

I was strictly adressing the outrageous wages and retirement that has been expected and demanded by autoworkers for years. I have heard of guys making anywhere from 40-50K a year up to 100K for guys that have been on the line a long time. All I'm saying is if your building 15-50K cars rather than mercedes there is just no room in that price range for a company to be succesful, build cars and give out the great retirement these guys get.

The math just isnt there on a chevy Aveo or Dodge minivan. Then when the big 3 packed up and went to mexico and canada there was outrage and lawsuits. But what you didn't hear was people willing to work for a reasonable wage to keep them there. Most would rather collect unenployment and stay home and watched the big 3 march off to foreign soil.

If you can honestly tell me that plugging a wire harness into a dash and handing it off to the next person, depending on senoirity, is worth 50 bucks an hour, I'll eat my hat because I can train any joe schmoe off the street to do it in one hour or less and get repeatable quality results in an hour. In the non-(not going to phrase it on here) world making anything else in the states a fair wage for unskilled labor is 10 or 15 bucks an hour, TOPS.

Now, getting back on subject here I think skilled labor deserves a decent wage. Just don't expect 28 or 35+ bucks an hour for labor work unless you are a big name. Expect to make a fair american wage, support your family and understand that the success or failure of your employers shop has a direct relation to your well being. They go out of business, so do you. You want that, go to college, get a degree in a high paying field and rake in those big bucks.

I try and see this from the employers and employees standpoint. Without the employers, we are all unemployed. Pay a fair but reasonable wage, treat employees fairly and you should be treated with some decency in return.

I just hate the self en***led world we live in today where people expect to go anywhere without education and feel en***led to make 50K+ a year or sit on unemployment. it just isn't going to happen. I have worked some pretty ****ty jobs over the years with some pretty ****ty wages, but it was no ones fault but my own for skipping college and working labored jobs. I knew then and know now that in order for business to survive, they have to make money. After all thats what owning a business is all about, keeping the doors open and not failing.

Just my opinion so take it for what its worth


Scot

 

Must be pretty hard, as I went into a local Wendys recently and gave the pimply faced kid $7.00 for a burger fries and coke order that was priced at $6.75.

He took the money put it on the till and proceeded to count out change over $3.00

I told him he was making a mistake , he looked at me kind of baffled and said thanks

 

It`s nice to see someone that gets it.It isn`t a labor vs management. It`s working for a wage that benefits both to keep a company profitable. That`s what happened in Detroit. Too much going out and nothing coming back in.
Eventually the numbers quit matching up and epic fail. Now everyone is out.

 

It's not even about labor vs management or Detroit. It's about reasonable expectations of performance from a shop owner, and reasonable expectations about the wage/value of a particular employee. The 1/3 hourly rate thing is close. The shop owner has to be able to sell the work. The trouble with hourly wages in this industry is dairy farmers. I can't bill a customer 12hrs to polish the top of his hood. If that happens then the worker is incompetent or he's simply doing time. "**** it, I'm getin paid..." is the creed with some. That doesn't work. It's all too easy for a worker to get that disease if management isn't on top of the product. As far as taking side work goes, FIRE THE ****IN THIEF. It's theft plain and simple. Never ever think as a worker you can short sell someone in your employer's shop. Another thing, restoration, customizing, hotrods, none of it should ever be thought of in the sense of "BODY SHOP" mentality. That's just wrong. In the custom biz you create a surface, you don't sand and paint. You refinish the car, you don't give it a "paint job". That's the difference and it should show from across the field, the difference in quality and craftsmanship. I like to use a few "rules" in my daily gig.

The difference between a good job and a perfect job is about 15 minutes.

You can sell price or quality. Too hard to try and sell both. Somebody loses.

Ask yourself, if you were the customer, would you pay the hours that you put into that job?

If you have a guy with genuine talent and his work ethic contains any of the above, you can probably break the 1/3 formula and still show a profit. By that I mean, maybe there's 1 or 2 that really make your shop's street creds stand on top. You can pay thos 2 more than your less skilled workers and still see a profit, ESPECIALLY if their quality and practice becomes the norm on the floor. There is no set rule in this industry. It's too personal and like I said above, it's all disposable income.

 

these posts are always odd, how could someone tell you what your overhead, shop rate, profit margin, customer base, level of craftsmanship, ect are if you don't know.

Because if you knew those things you couldn't possibly need to ask someone who doesn't know those things what you can afford to pay an employee.

 

What some people don't see is that the secretary and office management wages have to come out of the hourly rate. I had an employee that complained we ripped people off because we paid him $15 an hr and charged $45 at the time. He figured we were raking in the dough.Needless to say he didn't work much longer after that.

 

What some don't understand is that skilled/talented people are needed to do any resto or fab work. Just trying to restore a car with countless repro parts that don't fit, and the worker needs to be able to make it work. That takes talent and experience.

Lastly, that 15 per hour... would you want your daughter to marry a nice guy who was only making 15/hr in this world? What would be their future? Never a new car, never a vacation to the islands, never hope for a cabin in the mountains or on a lake...just poverty.

 

IMO the general public doesn't realize the difference between a resto/cusrtom shop and a collision shop. I have had on several occasions had the response of " Why so much, I can get Maaco to do it for 800.00 " My answer has always been, " go ahead and let them paint your car. Then bring it to my shop and set it next to one of mine, Then in five years, bring yours back and set it next to mine " That tends to shut them up. The people that we in this industry rely on, are car guys though and through, not he guy that wants to be a car guy. I have had several cars come to me after collision shop restorations and I have seen what they doo. Scab on a piece of metal to cover a rust spot, then shape the mud to fit, and shoot some glossy Nason on it. I have seen more than my fair share of bondo worms sticking through panels. I have had damn near everyone of my customers tell me I need to charge more. I take hundreds of photos throughout the job so they have proof of what I have done. I make certain up front they know what they are getting for their money, and why I charge so much more than a " body shop " does.

On another note, the guy working at a resto shop for 15.00 / hour isn't doing it for the money he's doing it for the p***ion and love of the car. I, and I guarantee every other member here with a shop has made SERIOUS compromises in their life to make their shop happen, and right now I am damn certain a lot of them are making more and more sacrifices to stay open. It's not about the money for us, if it was I would have stayed in the business world and have a wife, 2.5 kids and a white picket fence, instead of my left hand, 2.5 tons of tools and bunch of cars

 

Hate to hijack, but I am a U.A.W. member. I work at a Ford Facility in Louisville, Ky. (We have 2 plants in our town) I do have a 4 year college degree but chose this vocation because I like to work on and put together cars and trucks. I also make a hell of a lot more money here than I would in some office some where.
To the poster who said he could train a person to do a job in an hour, not gonna happen here. Minium training on any job in trim, engine line, frame, or ch***is, is at least 3 days. You are expected to be moving on your feet 56 seconds of each minute. They pay outside people to make sure each job is maximized. if you are not, they find more stuff for you to do until you are.
Do we make good money? YES. We are basically pimping ourselves to the company for a check. Most people who retire from here after 30 years are broken down and hurting. The price we pay for our paycheck and benefits. And when we have a new cl*** of workers who come through the doors, many go to their cars and leave at lunch, never to be seen again.
We also have not had a raise in 4 years. We made a concession in our contract to help save the company and not take a bailout and not go bankrupt. How did we get repaid? The company gave all the salaried employees raises and restored benefits we gave up.
We are not an unskilled workforce, either. We have a large amount of people here who are VERY skilled at what they do. We have a lot of very talented metal finishers, painters, electrical, engine diagnostic, and all around problem solvers. And we have a lot of hotrodders, drag racers, bike racers,boat racers, custom car, truck, and bike builders.So, no, Not too many unskilled people here. That does not even include our skilled trades guys and girls. Tinners, electricians, carpenters, millwrights, welders, pipefitters.....
Please don't think I am acting "en***led". We deserve what we earn. Anyone on here who has ever worked in a manufacturing facility for a major corporation understands it is a high stress environment. When you add up 10k profit per unit off the end of the line x 700 units per shift (2 shifts) 5 days a week, NOW who is making all the money? The company.
Sorry for the rant/hijack. Kenny


FORD-Built without YOUR tax dollars... because of the U.A.W

 

Kenny,

I appreciated your reply. Not because we agree 100% on our views, but because it was well thought out, no cheap jabs and made your point of view clear and known.

I came from a manufacturing environment. Started out doing grunt work, ***embly, leading up to punch press operator, then finally shop foreman. All for a major ski equipment manufacturer. I did it from the time I was 15 years old and couldn't run any machinery until I was into my twenties and burned out.
This ski equipment company is very successful and ships worldwide. Its a non union shop and average wage there in the 90's was about $8.00-$9.00 an hour. No bennies. People worked there for those wages and made a living off of it. Me included.

Later on I went to a major computer manufacturer (remember Gateway?) Where it was brutal hours on the floor standing on your feet, moving all the time. Non- union shop and starting wage for this hard work was 9.00 an hour in the late 90's and held through the early 2000's. When Gateway started sinking and they started layoffs, then shutting down plants the employees, most working for 9 bucks an hour offered to take cuts to save the plant because we loved the company and wanted to see it succeed.

So now some questions to you,

I moved into training and spent years teaching up until I got into the fire service then became a training officer for the fire department.

Of your 3 days training how many hours are spent in orientation and general training, vs. job specific?

How many hours are actually spent teaching someone how to do a specific job?

I also understand there is also probably a probationary/mentored time on the lines.

Once all that is over what does the starting person on the lines start out at? My guess is 25.00-ish plus a killer benefits package.

Whats the highest paid person you know of on the line as an ***embler? Not a spe******t, but your basic line ***embly-person and how many years employed?

How do you justify these kinds of wages when the company you work for is sending work to other countries?

Of the number of cars you build per shift (

) How much of that is spent back in overhead for operations? How many millions per day to build cars in a plant that size?

Does your 10K profit per unit include all these costs or is that just after material expenses to build a unit?

Last I have read a few years ago, they were negative profits, not making money. Ford is doing an excellent job of saving the company, I'm proud of them for doing it without a bailout.

Of the current models ford produces, trucks included how many did they actually end up outsourcing? If I understand the statistics correctly over 50% of all of the manufacturers models are built outside the united states.


Thanks again for your great reply, I love a discussion and especially one that is kept civil and I learn something new. I'm always trying to be open minded and open to learning new things, so correct me where I'm wrong.

Thanks,

Scot

 

thanks to all for a civilized discussion. Please continue and hopefully this thread will carry on.

 

Before you worry about how much u can pay this addition to your shop, you have to find someone that can actually work productive and get the cars done, right the first time . Good luck

 

42hotrod, what I don't like is that most Japanese manufacturers can sell their cars at a premium, pay their people less, plus enjoy the benefits of a 50 percent tariff on foreign automobiles in their home market. The USA does no such thing with respect to tariffs, instead we let foreign automakers come in and trample all over our industry. Then we have people actually thanking foreign car companies for choosing to build their factories in the US There is no talk about how more jobs have been lost by our domestic automobile manufacturers versus what has been gained by Japanese (and others) building factories in the US. Those UAW worker jobs have been replaced by lower benefited and lower paying jobs at Japanese automotive plants operating in our borders.

The average man's wages have been going down for 30-40 years yet folks running large (I am not talking small business here) companies are making more than ever. The balance has been broken, while there are folks going around saying one should be thankful for what ever crumbs they get the reality is that you can not grow an economy on increased consolidation of wealth a**** fewer and fewer. Small businesses are the most susceptible to wage decreases, because ultimately the Joe working at Schmo's factory who got his wages cut in half won't be spending much money at a hot rod shop.

 

I wondered when the 'Let's blame the Japanese' would slide it's way into a completely unrelated thread.
Look at some of the shop build threads on here...then tell me there's no money for hot rods.
I wish the OP good luck in finding someone who will turn up every day and complete a full days work without *****ing and whining and not ask for $50+ an hour.

 

Scot, Most employees get a 40 hr orientation before coming to the floor. Goes over 90 day (90 working days) probationary period dealing with safety (we have over 140 acres under roof) processes and procedures, company and union history and so forth.
The mentoring period is your 3-7 day on the line training for the job. Some people pick it up faster, some slower, and you need to be put to a job that you can fit in (if you are 5 feet tall or 6 foot 7, you wont make it in the pits. That sort of stuff. You have an operator with you on the job to help you learn the most efficient way to do the job
Starting pay on the line for first tier workers is around 15.00 an hour and generally take about 4 years to get to full pay.that is not the case anymore. Second tier (another concession we made) will come in at around 14.00 and will stay pretty close to that . The only way they move up to first tier is when 20% of the workers retire. It is complicated, but think of it as an 80/20 deal. 80% make 28.40, and the other 20 % make the 14.00
Most everyone here on the line is in the 28.00 area. The only ones who are higher are skilled trades. Some people make slightly higher if they have learned all the jobs in a team. About 14 jobs a team. I think it is a quarter more per hour.
We actually have been getting production back from other places. F series superduties are made almost exclusively in Ky. only a few are made mex now, and cannot be imported back to us. we actually send more to mex than they build themselves. We also have other things that are brewing but I am not at liberty to run my jaws about them..
The 10k per unit is pure profit. all labor, utilities, parts, etc is factored in to the other 25-50 k per window sticker. I dont set the prices, I just build them the best I can.
I dont know that we outsourced the building of cars and trucks as much as just using places we have owned for over 100 years. We have made cars and trucks in Canada, Mexico, China, Brazil, England, U.S.A., and many other countries for a long time. Henry Ford bought land and built plants that were close to natural resources he owned along with the railroads. we also have a lot of cars and trucks that are not attractive to the U.S. market. That is where a lot of out offshore/over border units are made and marketed. If you have any other ?'s, please hit me up. Thanks, Kenny

 

Places you have 'owned' for over a 100 years?