broken head bolt... broken extractor.. what now?

You can't have "softer AND more brittle" at the same time.
One,or the other,not both.

 

Absolutely RIGHT! Unless you use "high quality" thread chasers. They don't take any material out, just clean the threads.

I went "all out" and purchased a set made by ARP especially made for engine thread chasing. They look like regular taps, but the OD is slightly smaller.

 

So I guess Easy Outs are anything but and should be avoided!

Question: When using the torch, where is the molten bolt material going once you blow through it? Does the block have to be torn down, if one were to have this problem on a motor that is in the car? Is the molten metal just going into a water jacket?

 

Django: If you're working in an open-ended hole, the slag will blast out the top of the hole [wear safety equipt....leather gloves, eye protection and stand back] until you go through the bolt. The remainder will go into the water jacket and will no doubt enentually go to the lowest part of the block, above the pan rail.

If the hole is "blind", all the slag will blow back out the top of the hole....hence, the heavy leather gloves and the need to cool the torch head...

 

thanks to all for the info. im getting tanks for my henrob soon, so ill see if i can burn it out.

 

question... when welding a stud, is using a mig a bad idea?

 

Look, if you want to rely on what is a lost art, ( and one **** of a what of a lot lot of luck), use your torches, oherwise think simple.

 

Check your P.M.s The Wizzard

 

I use "EZ Out" extractors pretty regularly.. have 2 sets.. sometime break them off.. most times not. Usually when they break off the extractor was too small for the bolt... drilled off-center.. or the bolt was deep.
I tried the weld a nut/space with washer trick.. nut fell off. left me with a shorter broken bolt.

My key to success... plenty of kroil.. like every day for 2 weeks.. heat applied multiple times.. drill the bolt with as big a hole and as close to the center as you can. Being carefull not to drill through the bolt and into the block. Make sure you get it red hot.. but keep your eyes on the area around the hole too.. dont melt anything.

Dont rush.. its nothing to spend 5-6 hours getting the bolt out... i have spent somewhere around 10 once.. but that was on a M1 Abrahms..

When i get the big hole in there.. i take a dremel tool.. sometimes works.. or a hacksaw blade with the top half ground off (leaving the teeth and a bit) and i saw/grind two opposing areas through the wall of the bolt. being carefull not to saw into the threads..

Clean out the hole with air.. use a bright light to look in it.. you will see the edge of the bolt and the threads as you get to the edges of them.
then i apply sideways pressure with a dental pic or ice pick or center punch.. this will relieve the "bind" that the bolt has.. usually they spin right out after that.

I have removed a considerable amount of broken bolts and only rarely have to use "heli-coil" or "roseane" inserts... as long as you take your time and dont rush..

Sometimes i use a reverse twist bit... or "left handed" drill bit..'bout halfway into the bolt they sometimes spin out.

Sorry man, that ****s, i hate broken bolts... and head bolts are the worst.

 

I've done the torch bit, it'll work, if you are good with it. I once removed 16 Broken bolts on a Cat final drive in a muddy field, at night with a torch. Had it back in operation in 4 hours.

You migh try heating the ezout red and letting it cool a couple times. This will lopsen it up a lot of times, allowing you to get it out without being too destructive.

I weld nuts to broken bolts with a mig all the time, and it works great. In your case, I would use a peice of iron strap about 1/8" thick, and 1" wide, about 6" long. drill a hole in it about the same size as the EZout, weld it to the EZout only, and after it cools, turn it clockwise. I tap it gently with a small hammer, it seems to work better than trying to turn it with a wrench. Since the EZout has a left hand twist, it should come out fairly easy, and then you only have a broken bolt to deal with. you can weld to that then to get it out.

 

When you drilled it for the ez out did you drill all the way trough the stud? If you did I would try heating it and driving it in.

Bruce is correct (as usual) about cutting / blowing it out with a torch. Iv done it and it does work. It works best in the situation your in (non blind hole). It works because the stud and ez melt at a lower temp than the block. Iv done exh. Bolts and even saved the treads in the head.

The mill option is the best. Unfortunately very few people have one tall enough to fit the block up in. my friend that machines flatheads has a tall extension on his Bridgeport for doing this kind of stuff. In fact he doesn’t even try to get busted studs out. He puts them in the mill (with a guide plate) and drills um out.

 

Funny this should come up. I was going to do a tech on EDM in the next few weeks. I have a broken bolt in a jag diff. The guy who had it before me put too long a bolt in, and tightened it up until it stayed, just waiting for a ****er like me to take it out, only to find it's snapped a few mm's down the hole.
I'm going to take it to work and do it myself. We use them for making fine stuff, like the holes in speaker grills (I work at a tool making shop) but we have machines big enough to take a whole block, probably the whole car.
If you were closer I could do it for you. But that’s not really an option is it.

 

I have had success using the welded nut trick. However I have found the best way is to use an ESAB 7018 rod. Weld the nut on, let it cool a bit, and back that ****er out. These rods are unbelievably strong and the weld will not break. We use it a lot on marine application where bolts are rusted and seized very very tight.

 

get some silikroil (http://www.kanolabs.com) or beg/borrow/steal some from a good machine shop, gun repair shop or shipyard/foundry. soak it overnight and tap it/ twist it out with a screwdriver. y'all need to get up to speed on commerical penetrants and lubricants to work on this old schitt and keep it going. i did lubrication application since 1971 and auto parts and hardware store **** just don't cut it, use what the shipyards and foundrys use, they have no time for broken fastener repairs.

 

i got the extrator out by heating it w/ the torch and then drilling it out. any more info on burning it out? i dont want to damage anything. heres a pic before i drilled it.

 

Do you have a hole all the way through the stud? If not do it, it will cut a lot easier. Like I said before the stud will melt a lot sooner than the block. But still you need to heat it fast and shoot strait. Then you will just need to pick out what’s left and run a tap (w lots of oil) in and out real slow.

I’m sure you know this but others reading this may not. Bolt a head on for drilling to help center the drill and keep it strait. Even better would be to make a bushing, OD the size of the hole in the head and the ID the OD of your drill bit and use that in the bolted on head.
good luck man

 

you can drill all around the e-z out with a very small drill bit,and then dig it out...

 

I've had some success with using a mig welder. I removed an exhaust manifold bolt that had broken off by welding on the end of it, building up a big ball of mig weld material on the end, and then just grabbing the weld ball with vise grips and turning. I removed some head studs too, but used a big washer. The weld does not want to stick to the cast iron, just build it up big enough to grab it. It took 3 or 4 goes on the most stubborn head stud, and it was about 5mm down the hole, but on the 4th attempt out it came.
Here's a question: has anyone ever successfully used an easy out on a bolt that has sheared through being corroded in?
I've never used one, if that bolt is tight enough to shear, an easy out (now there's a misnomer) won't shift it. I can't think of when they might be used.
Mart.

 

Well what worked for me when a headbolt broke and it was countersunk, was to weld a smaller diameter BOLT to the broken one very carefully. I used my Lincoln 110 mig. Then I warmed it up with my oxy-acetalene torch till the bolt was glowing. Then I cooled er down immediately with a wet towel... She backed right out and when I got the block magged....no cracks! Worked for me, by the way there was still a broken easy out in the broken bolt too, Go figure.

 

Does anyone else get 1/8 inch carbide endmills for their Dremel tool? Get the high helix kind, almost look like a tap. Be very very careful, gl***es and hold it steady, no vibrations or PING. Mr. Dremel and I have become good friends in situations like you have. I tell all my friends when they call me to get broken bolts out that if there's an EZout broken in it I don't want to see it. Throw all EZouts away.

 

Last week I was knocking down 2 rusty flat motors and I broke 2 head studs on one. I welded a thick ½ inch washer to the stud and then a 5/8 nut to the washer. One came out no problem (it was loose before it broke) On the other the nut and washer broke off the first time. So I pre heated around the stud and welded on another and it came out no problem.

BTW I prepped the studs for a full week, by cleaning with acid then heavily spraying penetrating oil and taping the studs with a hamber.

 

Just A Though But What If You Applied An Oxy Acetylene Small Tip Torch To The Broken Ez Out To Anneal It . Then It Will Be A Lot Easier To Get Out.

 

If you welded the nut with a mig welder and the weld broke off from the stud you aren't using nearly enough heat... Try 20 to 24 volts, really burn into the broken stud...

The following is From Red's Headers Tech Area, (it works every time if you use lotsa heat with your mig)





''''With a stud or bolt of which the head has sheared off due to corrosion or damaged (stretched) threads....
#1) However elementary, Please Take notice that a bolt/stud almost always breaks off reasonably flush with the surrounding surface.
Example: In the attempt to remove the heads from say a 32 to 53(54) flat motor, some of the studs will back out and some of the nuts will loosen easily - but often we are left with studs that may have, over time - adhered to the surrounding cast metal of the block and under no cir***stance, are they going to back out in one piece...
As a journeyman machinist with a welding ticket to back me up, I have run across this situation countless times in the past 30 or so years, here is a tip that in practice will almost always back a broken fastener out of a cast iron block (or any cast machine part) without fail and will work (with minor adjustments) on cast aluminum as well-in less time than it takes to read this message.
Given- -in practice, I have found that the smaller (diameter) the bolt/stud is, the easier it is to twist off during dis***embly-but by definition, the smaller the broken stud is, the easier it will be to remove as well.
First - determine the diameter of the broken fastener: if the stud/bolt was say 7/16ths to begin with, then go to your bolt bin and find at least two 7/16 nuts for every broken stud. *Make sure that they are NOT cadmium or zinc plated (that the nut doesn't appear to look silver or gold).
Secondly - With a pair of vise grips, Hold ONE nut directly over the top off the broken stud as if to simulate where a bolt head would reside if the broken stud had one. This will be as flush as possible with - and seated on the block as to simulate a bolt head. As mentioned earlier, most fasteners will shear off within +/- 1/16th of the blocks deck height and given these tolerances we will have plenty to work with.
Using a MIG welder, (you don't need to be a journeyman welder to do this, just handy with a mig) we will attempt to weld the inside diameter of the nut to the broken stump of the stud. This sounds far more difficult than it actually is....
Using vise grips to position and hold the nut reasonably flush, carefully tack the inside of the nut to the broken stud, then stop and check for alignment. You can gently tap the nut into position remembering to keep it reasonably flush with the block's deck height.
Now weld up the inside of the nut - aiming your weld at the broken stump. Take care in concentrating the heat and weld AT the broken stud, NOT at the nut. This will ***ure that you transfer as much of the puddles heat into the broken stud as possible (helps release the stud) and as you build your puddle up, it will automatically self weld to the nut. If your nut gets too hot, stop for a few seconds to let it cool as you do not want to melt or distort the hexagonal shape of the nut. This also allows more time for the heat to transfer further in. If you do by chance melt the nut beyond recognition, don't worry just start over with a new nut as the extra heat you transfer into the block will not harm it, it will only ***ist in freeing the stud.
Do not worry about accidentally welding the nut to your priceless cast iron block as it ain't gonna happen, the reason being is that the process of welding the high carbon content of a cast (high grade steel) iron block (or any cast machine part) requires highly specialized techniques and materials that make it far immune to your standard Mig wire. Guaranteed.
Now, In practice you have just welded a new head to the stud and should be left with what now looks like a standard bolt.
ALSO in practice, I have found that the smaller diameter a broken fastener is/was, the less heat it will require to release the stud from its surroundings, that is to say... When you now put a wrench or socket on your self fabricated "bolt" and attempt to unscrew it, chances are that a smaller (3/8 or less) stud will back out EASILY on the first attempt.
IF your newly formed 'bolt' head breaks off on it's first attempt to back it out, don't worry. This just means that you either tried to back it out before it cooled (was still RED hot) or you didn't transfer enough heat into the stud. (Or possibly you may need to practice your 'nut' welding technique a few times on some s**** pieces). Most of all, don't get discouraged, as even a basic rod builder or back yard mechanic can master this in minutes with just a little practice (and in the mean time impress the heck out of your buddies).
Besides, In most cases it is very common for the nut to break free of the stud on the first attempt (this is why I had mentioned to find at least 2 nuts per broken stud), As generally the heat ***ociated from the first attempt is seldom enough to heat and expand the broken stud thus freeing it from its surroundings.
I have used this technique on everything from 1/4 inch aluminum transmission pan bolts (ever try welding the inside of a 1/4 inch nut?) to 7/8 X 10 inch long D9 Cat Headbolts and even in the case with a 7/8 X 10 inch long head bolt, it has worked every time without damage to the internal threads or surrounding metals.
*NOTE. Although physically possible, don't attempt to use a stick (rod) welder as you WILL almost certainly cause a stray arch/flash THAT WILL forever damage the cast iron and change/compromise the cast/grain structure of the surrounding block/metal. Don't attempt this with a torch either as you will be concentrating the heat far more on the surrounding metal of the block and not on the stud. Use a Mig only.
*NOTE. One of the reasons we do not use a zinc or cadmium plated nut is that it is far harder to properly weld/adhere molten metal to coated nuts (read weld) until the zinc/cadmium plating has burned off thus releasing toxic (and in the case of cadmium, deadly) fumes. NEVER ATTEMPT TO WELD CADMIUM.
"""
"""

 

The trick to getting out broken bolts has been covered very well, but I will add a couple of suggestions. After welding on a washer and a nut you neeed to heat the area as hot as you can without damaging anything. Next you take cold water and cool the bolt and area till you can touch it without getting burned. Apply some lub (our choice) then usinga boxed end wrench, see if you can move the bolt a little. If you can, move it back and forth in small increments bringing it out a little more each time. If it does not move, heat again. They also make a rod called an Allstate 275. It is the trick for bolts. You can "go down in a hole" after a bolt with them. The rod has a thick slag that will fill the sides of the hole and protect the threads. It takes a lot of start and stop and cleaning the slag between welds but I have been 2 inches down inside a Caterpillar track with sucess. Oh...it doesn't hurt to give the bolt you are trying to remove a whack with a hammer every now and then as you are trying to get it out either.

 

The deal with the wax really works...been using it since back in the 60's. Use the chisel to turn the little ******* once you get it to take the wax. Any wax will work...just put it on like you were gonna solder it together. Hint...when you are going to use an easy-out...do the wax thing first so the broken bolt will just turn right out. Good luck, Ron.

 

Another area I havent seen talked about is..
The complaint of having a broken bolt below the surface and fear of welding into the sidewall threads.
I have had good results by taking a piece thin wall copper tubing the same size of the hole and driving it into the hole up to the broken stud. This copper will prevent the weld from adhering to the sidewalls and regardless of the depth of the broken bolt it can be welded.
This thread needs to go into the tech section.

 

I have done this before it works, I learned this trick 30 years ago when I did a work block for school emplyed in all places a John Deere dealership. I removed three broken studs in a 65 year old two cly. JD. Take a cutting torch heat the broken stud red hot hit the air and the bolt will melt out leaving the block with threads in tact. Chase the threads with a tap and your done. The heat absorbing qualities of a cast iron block will prevent melting of the cast iron, The steel bolt will just turn to a molten mess that is flushed out by the air blast. It sounds scary as hell I know but it does work.

 

Candle wax will work. I guess I'm a Vintage hot rodder now. LOL

 

I have a few left hand twist drill bits I use with my EZ Outs. The trick is that about half the time the drill bit will grab the broken bolt, and spin it out without even using the EZ Out. And as always soak it in penetrating oil for as long as possible.

 

I got some too, and they work just AWESOME! The 1/8" carbide on my Dremel even took out the broken EZ out from inside a broken M6 (less than 1/4" dia) stud on a friend's 4wheeler cylinder head.