questions for the vinegar guys

My dad is thinking about making up a tank to do fenders with vinegar ,How long do the chemicals keep.Just curious before he buys 100 dollars or so worth of vinegar,,,,,

 

Hi John. Some here say molasses works well. I think I heard a 4:1 ratio of water and molasses. Maybe a little less expensive.

I honestly don't know the answer, but I know one thing for sure...

You're a new uncle.

 

you'll need a pretty big tank and it's gonna smell. keep it away from the house. keep it covered and it should be good for quite some time.

 

Maybe make pickles or sourkaut at the same time. (high in iron)

 

No pickles or sauerkraut ,I just pmd you, I figure Id ask that question for him,Before he goes to Sams club and spends all that money ,He has to do at least 8 fenders....He's got many cars .............

 

My buddy who is a body man who also does body work and restoration stuff in his garage, bought a 35 gallon plastic barrel and cut it about 2/2 , 1/3 length wise and hinged it, put in a wooden base. It holds about 18/20 gallons, and he can get some pretty big stuff in there, rotated as necessary to get it all under.

In his shop with all the solvent and filler smell you hardly notice the pickle barrel. His stuff is over 2 year old and he is still using it, adding more as needed for evaporation.

Go to a whole sale grocery place (lots of produce places have it) and you can get it cheaper. Most of them are all 5% acedic acid, you can some times find 10% for commercial usage but I don't know if the difference in price or efficacy would be enough to justify the extra cost.

He also set up a vertical electrolysis tank for long thin stuff.

 

The issue with molasses and it does work well but it doesn't keep long term because it's sugar based. it will mold up on you after a bit. Nice thing is it won't kill your lawn like vinegar will. It actually helped my grass when I dumped about 25 gallons on it.

Before


After about month in the bath in cold weather



Your results may vary.

I did on gallon of farm grade molasses to 20 some gallons of water. cost $12

 

I used muriatic acid from a pool supply place, and cut it even more to make it less aggressive. It's cheaper than a whole bunch of vinegar, but you need to be more careful handling it. Mine is in a pail with a lid for smaller parts. I use weed-whacker line to suspend the parts.

 

I did a thread on a vinegar bath and I can tell you the vinegar lasts a long time...several months.

 

I just finished a ton of parts using vinegar, I was amazed, cant tell ya how long it lasts but I wont be blasting anything if I can get it a vinegar bath, Im going with a 55 gallon plastic drum with a lid, it does stink but no big deal and a lid will cure that.

 

Zeke - That's outstanding. It looks hot tanked. I tried the wshing soda and battery charger business myself once, and I wasn't too happy with the results for the effort. Maybe I'm too impatient. I definitely like your results with molasses.


As far as a container, I've seen guys who like the washing soda process (more than I do) make a frame with dimensional lumber and then line it with several layers of visqueen. Should work regardless of what other method you prefer, molasses or vinegar. John, I'd be concerned about hydrogen brittling if using vinegar, but it is just a fender.

 

That was just from the bath? or did you do some scrubbing and wire brushing or something? I'm off to get supplies to start doing this....

 

I know I have some parts that are about to get the molasses bath. I'm hoping I can get the cheap stuff from a local tack and feed store.

 

instead of buying vinager , call a chemical supply place and buy glacial acetic acid , its the stuff thy make vinager from , it has more of a kick , but the same amount of smell , and to nuetralize it you get a bag of baking soda and make a big fizzy , I used to buy it in 30 gallon drums and dilute it 50/50 it will not remove paint but will clean off rust and crud .

 

I say, go for it. Vinegar is delicious on about everything.

 

Yeah, as much as I like molasses I'm not a fan of molasses on chips but I hear its better on rust.

Doc.

 

I used Molasses on all my panels, thought it worked very very well, takes a few weeks though. I made a tub from left over wood and lined it with a builders tarp, no leaks.

You will need a high pressure washer to clean the parts when they come out of the molasses. Every panel on the coupe in my avatar was soaked in molasses, hit them with the DA sander and a light spray with oil and they are good to work with. Dont leave the metal raw for more than 10 min, it will start to surface rust pretty quick.

You can also use wood bleach from the hardware store, have not used it but i hear it works well also.

 

I did molasses on my flathead block and heads. Looks nice and clean! 7:1 ratio.
Gotta watch for some pitting, and the smell sucks.
A flathead fits just fine in a 35 gallon rubbermaid trash can.

 

Check and see if there is a vinegar plant around your area. Sometimes you can buy it with a higher acid content. Most store bought is 5% acid. We have one about 10 miles from where I live. hope this helps.

 

To the guys using nuratic acid, how are you diluting it?

 

tlmartin84 - I'm a chemist by edjumacation. Always add acid to water, never, ever, the other way around, and very slowly at that. Wear goggles, PPE, and have adequate ventilation.

Muriatic is a common name for 31% diluted hydrochloric acid. This is very potent stuff and needs to be treated with respect! I can tell you a 10:1 dilution of water and muriatic will make your concrete fizz like an alka-seltzer. At 10:1, you have a 3% concentration and it will still thump your ass!

I promise the chemistry lesson is almost over: Muriatic (or hydrochloric) is a strong acid. Acetic acid (vinegar) is a weak acid. Diluting a strong acid in water does not make it weak. 5% acetic will not destroy your body. 3% hydrochloric will.

 

john

sorry.. but as much as others love these tricks.. I am still in love with electrolitic rust removal..

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1067720-rust-removal-using-electrolysis.html

 

HAHA I'm going to try the electro thing.....wonder if that would work with a 50 gallon drum so that you could get fenders in it?

 

How long does the the soda bath stay good for?

 

basically till it don't work no more , when it takes longer to remove the crap you know its going bad , mostly the anodes need cleaning or replacing before the mix . you have to change it out or add more to it ocassionally , the soda method works real good ( I was doubter till I tried it on some real rusty stuff )

for a fender try a box with a pool liner or heavy water proof tarp in it and make a anode from mesh to get a large surface area , if you use a drum it has to be plastic to prevent shorting out .



, I would never use Hydrocloric or muriatic acid as it makes the metal brittle also ( hydrogen embrittlement ) .

 

Take the fast track! Phosphoric acid is what I use. Dissolves rust without hurting the base metal. In my experience, Muriatic acid will cause everything to rust again after you remove it from the solution. Even the vapors will cause anything that happens to be nearby to rust.

Phosphoric acid will remove and convert the rust to something inert. I wouldn't screw around with molasses. It sounds like it has a nasty smell and creates a hell of a mess. Although, I admit I've never actually tried it.

You can pick up phosphoric acid at the hardware store. It often sold as concrete or rusty metal cleaner. Check the label to make sure the active ingredient is phosphoric acid. It's usually about $20/gallon but it can be cut pretty good with water. It is pretty fast acting too. Even cut about 5:1 with water it seems to clean even the rustiest stuff in about a day. When the parts come out you don't have to worry about the parts re-rusting again for a long time either (unless you leave them out in the rain or something.)

 

To the guys who have used washing soda and the electrolitic process - what's the largest piece you've done, and how long? how many amps? any useful info would be appreciated. I did this with some Model T hardware a while back (22 ga straps about 2 feet long and 4" wide). My results were OK but not great. I filled a rubbermaid garbage drum with solution, tied off on the pieces, and stuck a three foot length of #4 rebar in the solution. I baked it for about 3 days with a 10A charger. Any comments are appreciated.

 

^ It shouldnt take that long, when done right it is pretty fast, the thing you have to remember is it works by line of sight.

 

This process has worked for me pretty well in the past. I think the largest piece I did was a 235 valve cover. Just make sure you have the right concentration in your solution and remember it it only works "line of site" so you may have to move your part around to get all the areas.

I used a large plastic tub with about a dozen pieces of rebar wired in series around the edges. For a power source I just used a small battery charger. I was happy with the results.

 

The largest piece I have done is an F-1 hood. As stated above I made up a grid work of rebar and pieces of metal I had laying around. I placed the hood in a plywood box that I made up and added sodium carbonate (washing soda if available; or PH increaser for swimming pools). I used a 40 amp sear battery charger. Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of the hood after I took it out of the bath. I did have before and after pictures of the rear fender. I used the same process on the rear fender.