i can tell you 100% for sure, that proportioning valves, RPV valves do not help the bleeding process, just to check on what someone else said, you have the drums installed and the shoes adjusted up with some drag, if the shoes can move while your pumping then bleeding will be tough, you need a line coming from the master to a Y and a line then going to each front wheel, you need the other line coming from the master going to the dif. and a Y on the dif. with lines going to each of the rear wheels.
Yes everything is adjusted properly, brakes worked fine prior to this. This was supposed to be an upgrade. Even with new lines being installed, is it normal to have NO pedal? I think tomorrow we are going to try bleeding with an air compressor type system. Then I'm going to sell this car and never look back. LOL
For the 4th time, have you tried loosening the line to the rears at the master, and pumping slowly?? If the entire rear system is full of air, you can't get **** for pedal with the "pump it up, hold it down" nonsense. Flow bleed the dam thing.
X2 on Budd's reply. A prop valve has NOTHING to do with the master cylinder working properly or you having "pedal". You said ,IIRC, that when you bled the M/C and pushed the rod in, fluid came out the front port, but NOT the rear... Ask yourself, does this seem right? NO. Either the M/C still isn't bled correctly, or it's broken...kaput...NFG...dead...this parrot has CEASED TO BE!
don't give up Hoop, i have followed twenty threads on here just like this one, trouble bleeding brakes, it is fustrating because i know if i was there the brakes would be bleed in 1/2 hour tops, maybe some pics of your setup would help, the master, the fittings, the wheel cylinders, you may have to do the bleeding process 20 30 times till all the air is out?
Hoop, we have had the master cylinder off and upon taking it off I did not see bubbles. Again, this was a kit, booster and MC and while it's possible, I don't think they would put the wrong rod length in. Again, totally possible. Also, we've used the pump up method, we've used the opening the valve and pushing the pedal down, then closing the bleeder. We've tried gravity bleeding. We've tried using a hand held pump to bleed. Sorry if I haven't tried or replied to everyone. I work full time and only have so much daylight to mess with this thing. I also made sure the parking brake wasn't engaged and the pads are adjusted with a little bit of drag. Also the MC was taken to a mechanic to bench bleed it again, that was this morning, and he said it was working like it was supposed to. ( i wasn't there for this, my father was) So that's where I'm at. I appreciate everyones help and if you don't want to bother with this thread, hell I totally understand.
budd, I am really thinking that excessive air is the problem. Thats why I want to use the compressed air type of bleeder just to get the fluid through the new line.
theres always gravity bleeding, a piece of plywood with a 1/8" hole can be a pressure bleeder, just go easy and have someone ready to close the bleed screw.
i use the hand held pump to get fluid to the wheel cyl. then i pump bleed the brakes. (twice) i got to ask again, i'll ask to all .is the rod from the pedal the same length on a non power ***isted as it would be for a power ***isted.?
On my application, I moved the rod to the pedal down to the lower notch on the pedal. My pedal now bottoms out about and inch or 2 before hitting the floors.
I only know about this because it happened to me. A friend purchased a master booster ***embly an we could not get it to bleed. That is when I discovered the pin they put in between the booster and master was too long.Everything you have done leads me to believe that is your problem.
Ok, let's ***ume that your mechanic know his stuff... You sent him JUST the M/C, or the M/C and booster as a unit? If it was only the M/C and it worked fine, but DOESN'T when you bolt it to the booster, then you have a compliance problem with the pushrod. Do you have to push the M/C up against the booster when you bolt it up? It should go right up against the face of the booster with NO effort. If you have to push, the booster rod is likely compressing the M/C enough to block the transfer port (it doesn't take much). I'd measure pushrod stickout from the face of the booster, and compare that to the depth of the cup from the face of the M/C. If the booster is ***embled correctly, it should not preload the M/C.
Just to add to the correct info above, the booster should have full vacuum applied (about 20" Hg) when measuring/adjusting the booster push rod (pin as it has been called) clearance with the master cylinder, and correct clearance is normally .040", or just over 1/32nd".
It could not possibly that hard to out smart the brake fluid. There must be something else wrong. If the brakes worked perfectly before you touched it, then it must be something you did, or didn't do. That could include bolting on faulty parts. None the less something you did. Brake fluid is pretty easy to out smart. The mechanism to transfer the fluid must be perfect, the motivation for the fluid must be perfect, the end of the braking system must be correct. Fluid is stupid. Flairs, hoses, fittings, masters can get you.
long shot... pull the drums back off make sure all brake hard-ware is where it should be. with that being said ,today i rebuilt 2 wheel cyl. the kits came to me,i opened one. every thing was like it should be,in plastic bag. did the right one started on left. parts in bag,opened it up . the little rubber seals were somewhat smaller and would not work. 7/8ths kits in a 1 inch box. right number on box and all. anyway what i'm gettin at is go back and check wheelcylinders/brake hardware. if you have to take cylinders off and make sure they are put together right. i know its a longshot/lot of work,but it seems you have exhausted other ideas. there are some pretty smart guys on here and surley some off them could come up with a solution. those w/c were put together by somebody,and hey they could have screwd up. also you said very little fluid comes out, do you mea at the bleeder valve or the line its self at the w/c. if you do not know how old the 3 rubber hoses are ,go ahead and replace them also. just so you'll know. again best of luck
Alright folks, I'm gonna try some more things when I get time, tonight or tomorrow. Dark out right now so that makes things difficult. This was a kit but since someone mentioned that pin length could still be wrong, I want to look into that. When I put the pin into the booster, it acts like it wants to spit it back out. I ***ume this is from the diaphragm being inflated. So, how do I check the length with it in the booster? Do I push the pin in and then measure the distance sticking out and compare it with the depth of MC hole? As someone stated before, the MC sits flush on the booster. Only resistance is slight from what I would ***ume is the inflated booster diaphragm.
Is your vacuum hose ****ing OK when you're checking all this no-pedal stuff out? IOW, is the motor running? Jack E/NJ
I think I may have just figured out my own problem. I'm theorizing that if the diaphragm is slightly expanded than I may not have enough play in the rod to my brake pedal. Doesn't seem like there is any resistance when installing the MC and there was no bubble when removing it, but I am going to try and mess with it in the morning anyhow.
Alright ^ the above theory was incorrect. Apparently the Booster to MC pin was incorrect. When I removed the MC from the booster with the lid off, I was told I would see bubbles or movement if the pin was too long....I didn't so I ***umed it was correct. Just to try one more thing, I tried to install the MC with the lid off, that's when I saw that the MC was being de-pressed before it was totally on. So we bled the piss out of the brakes, and I have brakes but they are very low and scary. We readjusted all the shoes but I am thinking I might have a slow leak somewhere. POssible a bad wheel cylinder. Hard to tell though because so much fluid was sprayed around the wheels. I did check the pin length again and it engages at about 1/2" or less of pedal movement. So now just figuring out why the brakes aren't the way they should be. With the car off I have pedal, but when I start the car the pedal moves way easy and doesn't feel like I could lock the brakes up if I wanted. Thank you to everyone that spent time helping me with this. I really appreciate everything.
Hoop, you're the man by the way. Had I paid for quality parts in the first place, none of this would have likely happened.
1 st reply to this thread from fj had your solution. 5 pages later the epiphany Glad you got it on its way to being fixed.
Unfortunately, I had brakes and now I don't. I tried clamping off all the lines and I got a nice high pedal. Upon taking any of the 3 clamps off, the pedal dropped pretty far. Not sure what that tells me, I ***ume there is still a leak somewhere, and maybe bad wheel cylinders.
If you clamped the rubber lines and got a good solid pedal feel and very high pedal; then it could be: -air in all of the cylinders themselves. Not likely to have air in all at once IMO. -all brake shoe adjusters are backed off too much. -wrong (too small) bore diameter in the master cylinder bores to go with the wheel cylinders. -or, a combination of all 3 above. EDIT: When YOU say the pedal is HIGH with clamped lines, and if it really is high and solid, THAT says: the booster pin is adjusted OK. AND, it says that the pedal ratio is OK. If the pedal is very solid with lines clamped, but is not really WAY up to the top, the pin may be adjusted too short now. Low pedal with lines NOT clamped can very often be a combination of errors; pin too short, brakes not adjusted real fussy, small amount of air in each cylinder, or foam in the cylinders caused by rapid pedal pumping....or pedal ratio is wrong.
If you clamped off the hoses and the pedal was high and hard then that shows the m/c and the hydraulics are good up to the clamping points. You have eliminated that as a problem. Releasing the clamps one at a time will show which part of the rest of the system the trouble is on. I would recommend at this point to adjust the brakes out on all corners untill you can't spin the wheels, this will take the adjustment out of the equation. Then the task is to find your trouble which will be air after the clamping points. What part of Oregon are you headed for? I am in the southern end and will gladly help if the car was here. I am thinking maybe a problem with the cups in w/c backwards. I have seen this once, but had a mess from fluid leaking just no pedal. Is the m/c the only new part of the system? Or were the lines and w/c changed at the same time?
We adjusted all the brakes so they were dragging. With the back unclamped and front clamped the pedal dropped down some With the back clamped and either front wheel unclamped the pedal really dropped. How would I know what bore I need? I'm pretty sure this was a standard 1" bore MC. I haven't been rapid pumping, just full slow strokes. The pedal is adjusted in the lower hole, and when looking at the mc with lid off the MC is engaging at about 1/2" of pedal travel, so I believe the pin is adjusted correctly (finally) Fleetliner, The booster, mc, one brake line, and a distribution block were added to the system. The wheel cylinders have been replaced but it has been years ago. I went ahead and bought a new driver wheel cylinder tonight because it looked like it may have been leaking. Was hard to tell from the mess from bleeding the brakes. This whole Bore thing is worrying me now.
Fleetliner, I am moving to Roseburg Oregon. However, the car won't be making it out there is my fiance has anything to say about it. I'm about as fed up with it as I have ever been, good chance I'll sell it.
i think the 1" bore will be fine, your wheel cylinders most likly are 1" bore, i'm leaning toward the brakes are still not adjusted peoperly, try adjusting them till you lock up the wheels so there is not way they will rotate, then see what you have for pedal, thats also the best time to bleed your brakes anyway, also if you have brake fluid on the brake shoes thats not good, your going to have to really clean that off or your brakes will lock up the first time you go for a drive, you should put a hose on the bleed screws when your bleeding them, saves all that mess.
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