54 chevy steering column with Mustang II

Guys,

I am in the process of installing my Mustang II and am ready to source parts to retain my stock column for use with the new steering rack, but cant find the original post I saw a year or so ago about all the parts needed to make the old one work. I know I have to cut it, grind the shaft into a DD shape, and buy u joints and a bearing, its just the specifics of those parts Im looking for. So, what bearing diameter am I looking for? And what Ujoints am I looking for?

Thanks!

 

check out Speedway,they have all that stuff and the info you need.

 

This is how I did mine. I think I may have posted on that other thread too but it was so long ago.
I cut the stock column a few inches out of firewall as shown
-First I cut the shaft a bit longer the column
-I bought a standerd bearing that the ID fit the shaft and the OD
fit the inside of column (just barely)
-I cut a 1/2 slice on bottom side of column to get bearing fit inside
-Then I welded pinch tabs by the slice and used nut/bolt combo to hold bearing
-I welded the Ujoint to the shaft and built the rest of joint set up from there

It was super easy with the split in column and I think looks pretty clean

Good luck

 

What Mustang II kit did you install? What crossmember?

What follows here is just a common sense + salt of experience answer:


Assumptions:
(*) You're planning to machine the output shaft of the factory steering column to DD.
(*) You're going to cut the factory steering column to fit in the process.


Mocking this all up is the hardest part. You'll need at least 2 u-joints- one DD-DD and one DD-{whatever the mustang II rack needs}. The catch here is the angle the ujoints get to.

On mine (Mustang II rack with short shaft, Chassis Engineering crossmember, Flaming River Column @ 32" long) the ujoint angles are very close to their limits- and because of the crossmember, I need an additional ujoint and support bearing.

So- mock it up first, take measurements, and then order what you need.

For me, With the motor out (again) now, I'm going to carve up a broomhandle and see if I can get it to go directly to the rack from where I think the column should be, and then cut my column to fit.

 

What Mustang II kit did you install? What crossmember?

What follows here is just a common sense + salt of experience answer:


Assumptions:
(*) You're planning to machine the output shaft of the factory steering column to DD.
(*) You're going to cut the factory steering column to fit in the process.


Mocking this all up is the hardest part. You'll need at least 2 u-joints- one DD-DD and one DD-{whatever the mustang II rack needs}. The catch here is the angle the ujoints get to.

On mine (Mustang II rack with short shaft, Chassis Engineering crossmember, Flaming River Column @ 32" long) the ujoint angles are very close to their limits- and because of the crossmember, I need an additional ujoint and support bearing.

So- mock it up first, take measurements, and then order what you need.

For me, With the motor out (again) now, I'm going to carve up a broomhandle and see if I can get it to go directly to the rack from where I think the column should be, and then cut my column to fit.

 

Thanks guys. I have the TCI mustang II. And yes David, I will be doing the two assumptions you mentioned. I just dont know where to locate a bearing, and what U-joints I need, or how to figure out what U-joints I need. Thats my dilemma. Eric, thanks for the pics. Your setup is exactly what I am after. Is my best bet on the column side a weld on U-joint so I dont have to machine the shaft to DD? I am also curious what guys are running for a column brace to keep the column in place. I get all the concepts of how everything works, just dont know what exact parts I need to make it come together.

Thanks
Jaison

 

I bought a bearing that was 3/4" id, 1 3/8" od, with a flange on one side. It will fit on the column at the taper roughly where it goes into your stock stearing box. That is where you cut it to retain that taper. Then take a section of your column out, shortened to your desired length and weld the tapered section back on.

Bearing was from VBX bearings. I think theres a how to posted on 50chevy.com also.

here is a link to the bearing I used. I also drilled 3 set screws in the column to hold the bearing. Used locktite bearing race retaining compound and the set screws to hold the bearing in the end, as well as a slight press fit. I guess I'm paranoid, but oh well.

http://www.vxb.com/Merchant2/mercha...ode=Kit8542&Category_Code=FlangedBallBearings

- Jon

 

I can't speak to the column changes... except to say that I wish I had thought of that

Grab some duct tape and an old broomstick. take your tape measure, and measure the distance from the firewall (where the steering column exits) to the rack. Cut the broomstick to that length. duct tape it to the rack and see where it ends up on the firewall. your angles should be less than (iirc) 35 degrees. If they're more, you'll need an additional u-joint somewhere in there.

 

I would suggest you DO NOT weld the u-joint to the steering column shaft. Aside from the possibility of doing heat damage to the u-joint bearings, you have a potential safety issue with no splines or keyway, only the weld to absorb the rotational forces. And if you do have splines or keyway machined into the shaft, use a set screw, thru-bolt or a clamping style u-joint and a weld isn't necessary.

If you go for the DD shape, I would recommend you have the shaft machined and not just "grind it" as the fit should be quite precise with no play.

As for the lower column bearing you need, a city or town of any size likely has an industrial bearing dealer/supplier who can provide what will be required.

Ray

 

Really??? the weld is going to break away on the steering shaft?? Im just turning the front wheels. It was tigged by someone I trust completely...as far as over heating the joint...NO not even close!!! My cars been on road for years with no problem, way over thought man!

 

I've always heard this one and I think its some kind of evil eye, voo doo, myth brought about by someone who didn't know how to weld, or get the alignment right, and ended up crashing due to incompetence.
You can weld Borgeson Joints just need to take care.

These shafts are used in OT Mustangs that are raced in CMC AI/AIX and they have never had a failure due to the weld 'cooking' the bearing.

FWIW, if you cannot weld the shaft to the U joint completely try to get a few good tack welds from the shaft to the U joint.
Without a weld, those locking allens won't keep the shaft from becoming ever so slightly loose. Eventually you will feel and possibly hear in the steering column a slight 'tink' every time you turn the wheel. It's from the slight amount of clearance between the ID of the U joint and OD of the shaft. More of a nuance than anything, but annoying none the less when you feel it.

 

Yes, Mine was welded out of the column then re assembled to get a good weld and give it a clean look thats close to the bearing when finished.

 

another option too guys, after you double D your shaft instead of a bearing you can spin up a insert bushing to act as the bearing would, made of nylon and held in place with a set screw. My 54 has over 9k on this set up and works perfectly.

 

I used a 3/4" heim joint and welded it to the sleeve. My u joints were off of a civic

 

If you don't want to spend big bucks, every Chevy van in the junkyard has a column with 2 U-joints in it, as do 4th gen Camaro. You might even be able to use the entire shaft out of the van column inside your column jacket, since the later ones have a sliding middle section that will let you fudge the length a few inches. The steering wheel will fit it fine. I've also seen U-joints in the first-gen Toronado and Eldorado, but they have a fatter steering shaft; and second-gen Riviera (66-69) has one right at the box, below the rag joint; those have the smaller shaft as the wheel off the one I took apart I've been using on a '54 column in my '50 Chevy just to have something to turn the wheels with. That's the one good thing about GM, you have tons of vehicles with the same size shaft and the same splines on the ends of them -

 

I used a kit from Jim Meyer racing... http://www.jimmeyerracing.com/



It was a little more complicated as we chose to use the original column shift too, there's some photos of the process here, just click forwards through them... http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...73805627.61159.135426079825838&type=3&theater

Hope that's of some help...

 

It's Christmas Eve.......so I'll leave at this...........you got your engineering degree where?

Ray

 

The same place the majority of everyone else on this site got theres...THE REAL WORLD! I have a hand full of buddies who are engineers, whats your point....there smarter then the rest of us???

 

Well, since you asked.....not all of "the rest of us"............ Just some. the fact that soemthing hasn't yet failed isn't proof that it is properly done........it may never fail..or it might, but just hasn't yet.

What objection do you have to doing something in a manner that uses proven principles to insure it doesn't fail? If only your life was at risk you should have that option, but your passengers and oncoming traffic may not be so inclined to take the risk......if only they knew.

It's your attitude that is more worrisome than the fact the method is questionable. What else do you do in your builds that ignores "best practices" ?

Ray

 

You seem pretty sure that it's not a good idea to weld U-joints (based on your caps lock getting stuck for a moment). I too have seen U-joints welded to steering shafts. I don't see a problem with it if the weld is done correctly. The key is to control the heat and watch the material color. The u-joints may burn off some grease because of the obvious lower melting point, but I don't really see the potential for damage unless it's an Oilite type construction (in which case a zerk fitting probably wouldn't be present). I'm not saying I know everything in the world, but I actually am an Engineer.

As any decent engineer would do, they would consult their resources before drawing conclusions. Have a read... (see section on welding stubs and steering joints)

http://www.woodwardsteering.com/images/steering universal joints.pdf

I will say this though... I would personally never use a shaft that wasn't indexed or keyed in some fashion, therefore only relying on the weld. But I didn't know anyone would really consider that anyway. Grinding a D profile on a shaft is completely fine as well, as long as it is done with care, watching fit and tolerances. It should probably be polished to reduce any stress risers that could occur from an irregular surface, but nothing wrong with the process itself. Agreed machining would be ideal, though. Any machine shop could do this cheap.

Set screws work if set correctly with a locking nut, but with temperature cycling and heavy driving conditions they should be checked to make sure they are tight on occasion. A tack weld or two, or a proper weld on a steering arrangement that doesn't need to come apart would certainly lower the chance of a set screw coming lose. I have a '35 Ford coupe with MII on it and no welds on the u-joints, but it only has to joints and is trapped in place when the rack and steering column is mounted properly. If another shaft and u-joint were used along with a support bearing, I would feel completely comfortable with welding.

Don't get worked up by Eric's reply to your comment. I know for a fact he has plenty of building experience to back up what he says. He's not someone that would cut a corner or offer false information that could potentially risk someone's life. And he drives the hell out of his car which is VERY well built.

 

On a tangent, you don't have to be an Engineer to know what the right way is to do something. An education and/or using large words doesn't make a person correct. Experience really IS knowledge. Knowledge often comes from experiencing the phenomena called, "being wrong." I'm wrong all the time. I get an education from it.

 

Very well said !

I agree completely ! Just keep in mind that there are others that find it easy to critique/criticise while hiding behind the anonymity of their keyboard. Arm chair hotrodders are everywhere.

 

That's a pretty stupid statement!
"Just cause it hasn't failed yet,doesn't mean it was done correctly".
Just cause my tires have air in them,doesn't mean I won't get a flat!
Just cause porn stars have sex for a living,doesn't mean they'll have sex with you!
Just cause you think something WAS done correctly,doesn't mean it WON'T fail!
It's ALWAYS a gamble....done correctly or not!

 

I agree with all the above. but nowhere was it stated the welded u-joint under discussion was "indexed" or "splined" before it was welded. I am not totally against welding a u-joint coupling or ragjoint flange to a shaft or tube......only that without a keyway or spline also included in the joint, the weld itself had better be very good. My point, apparently not appreciated by several posters, is that on a part as safety critical as a steering joint there is no good reason I can think of to not insure the modification is done as well, and thoroughly, as possible. Saving a few bucks, or a few hours time, is not, in my opinion, reason enough to skip a process that ensures the integrity of the joint. And the issue of heat damaging the u-joint is actually a secondary concern. The integrity of the weldment is primary.

As for "hiding behind the anonymity of the keyboard"...I beg to differ. You want to know more about me, my experience, background or where I live...read my profile, read prior posts or just ask. While I would concede I have less experience than many of the HAMBers, I have considerably more than many others.

And yes, I understand about experience being a great teacher. It's even a better teacher when you do a little research and comprehend the theory and priciples behind the task at hand before starting down the path. Why not save yourself making more mistakes than necessary....and yes, we all make mistakes. I am not claiming any immunity to that.

Sorry if my comments ruffled some feathers.....but I have to wonder if the defensive replies were based on dislike of perceived criticism, or because the responder really believes his method is the best possible and I am all wrong.

Ray

 

Ok, Wow bro...so now after questioning my education and getting back a general answer, you are personally attacting me, where did this come from?
My original comment was about you saying "DO NOT WELD". Never once was it brought up that the welded joint we did on my column did not have a set pin (which it most certianly does). I would never put myself or anyone in the situations you mentioned above. The steering and suspension (you knocked in another thread) was built with my good friend back east who is one of the most talented welders/fabricators/machinest you ll run into. He has been building top notch chassis for hotrods to drag cars in the northeast. I trust him over anyone I now with the safety of anyone including myself! As far as short cuts and the quality of my car, it was Top 100 pick 2010...they usually have some pretty well built cars throughout the country in that line up.

Back to the first statement, you made it sound as though welding a u joint on was unacceptable...now after you were called out its about the set pins. Ive read your posts before and all I can say is I hope you are as intelligent as you come off, in this case I guess you should have worded that first "dont do what that guy said" a bit differently instead of coming off as a know it all! I dont know it all for sure but im surrounded by some pretty smarts guys and Im always open to learning all I can from them. I have as much respect for the educated guy out there as I do for the guy who knows his shit from years of hard work in the trenches. With that said, Id take the word of the guy whos done it his entire life over the guy with a caculator everytime!

 

Well...Mr. Chevy54........this has turned into a bit more personal than I intended with my original post on this thread. We both missed the boat on the pin in the joint versus merely being welded. You should have included that info for the benefit of the guy asking the question and perhaps I should have commented in my first post that pinning, in addition to welding, would solve the issue.

Most of the remaining comments in my last post, prior to this one, were not so much directed at you as they were intended to respond to the range of comments by you AND the others who chose to offer their opinions and/or question whether I had any "real life" experience to back up my high falutin' opinions.

Most especially, my comments regarding delving into the theory and principles of a given area, (whether it be brakes, suspension, steering geometry, induction systems and so on) before jumping in, were intended for the general audience. I fully understand that theory with no experience is often less effective. But the converse often produces less than optimum results too.

As for taking every opportunity to learn from others, well, I've been doing that as long as I can remember. I, too, have been fortunate enough to get to know some very talented people over the years. They provide not only specific examples from which to learn, but inspire me to ask myself at the outset of a project "how would Bob (or Tom, Dick and Harry) do this?"

Not to brag, but to provide some perspective....I will soon be 68 years old and I have been working on mechanical objects for nearly 60 years. Down hill "coasters", bicycles, lawn mowers, go karts, motorcycles, automobiles, light trucks, farm machinery and airplanes. That includes somewhat pioneering work on Jap pickups as I did a Buick V6 swap into a 1966 Datsun in 1970, before they were popular in the the Midwest. That was the first of four I built over a ten year period ('70 thru '80), the last with a factory (Buick) turbo V6. And there have been, before and after, various hot rods, street rods, dune buggies, off road Jeeps and numerous 'totals' rebuilt to 'as new' standards.

Anyway, the point is, I really didn't set out to make an enemy here. Just expressed an opinion about what I understood to be a method utilized that struck me as less than ideal.

I am sorry if I have offended you in the process.

Ray

 

This thread could have been very useful. Pity.

 

Thank u Hnstray, You have an impresive list of projects as I had already figured you did. I never doubted your knowledge on any of the topics, I was making a point that there is more then one way to skin a cat. So with "proper" real world experience the same goals can be achieved, most of the time. In my line of work over 20 yrs I have had to correct (more then once) structural designers on how and why there design was not going to work. Another example, 2 of my engineer friends designing parts for Boeing's areospace division, making war helicopter parts, fly my friend (mentioned earlier) across country to build there chassis for them. Why....? because even with all there experience and as inteligent as they are, they trust his 35 yrs of real world weld/fab experience! Either way, after everyones playful holiday bickering there were some good points made here! Merry Xmas to yourself and all involved


BTW, I did not mention that the set screw was used to original poster, my bad....slipped my mind as I believe the ujoints came with them, and I was thinking back (6yrs) to how we did everything when steering was setup.

 

Actually, with the exception of our back n fourth rants (which happens on all debating threads) this is actually a very useful thread. There is now more info on steering set up along with references. Two engineers and other members provided a lot of important info on how to properly set up and weld u joints and safty points to it all. If this had not happened this thread would have probably fizzled out after first few post and pics. I say its a HAMB success!!

 

Eric,

Thank you for your comments. Best Wishes for this Holiday Season and a prosperous New Year !

Regards,
Ray