My wife and I have a small trim shop out of our house its part hobby part work. We have done some work for friends this is a great way to do a friend check. The only thing I think that can be weird is when everybody thinks time is time. I won't listen to: "I helped you several days on your car" (translation I stood and drank your beer and BS and handed a wrench once in awhile) "so can I get some seats done". However I have some friends that work in hot rod shop and helped me fab some parts or got me a deal on some parts. In that case I owe them... The guys that actually help stay friends the other...usually fade...problem solved.
body, paint and metal work is a hobby to me right now. I like to do it, but on the other hand, I have a real job too. I dont mind doing work for "friends." Especially when they really help. Of course, it depends on the work too. If Im doing a simple french/nose/deck or something, I usally ask for them to pay for the materials and throw in some extra for me...When it comes to payment time...i can tell if they appreciate it or not....believe me. If Im doing it all by myself...I do expect compensation. Im usually up front before I start. Depending on the work...I'll layout the hourly or lump sum rate. Since Im not a shop...I usually charge friends $20 to $30 an hour (depends on the work.) I do this to help keep the costs down in thier pockets, I make a few bucks...I can build my stuff...we are all happy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Their's only two ways to figure it out, and NOBODY knows either of them. I have owned my own 'one man' body shop for 35 years, and learned a long time ago, that i have to trust 'my instinks' to figure out who gets a better deal then my prevailing rate. Building or rebuiling cars is NO easy feat, unless you are a hack and do shitty work, in that case, you won't be in business long enough to worry about what to charge whomever. IT DON'T APPEAR THAT YOU FIT THAT PROFILE. Great body and paint work requires a ton of work and talent. I have allways given family and close freinds GOOD deals, as well as MANY- MANY freebees. BUT that changes, as time goes by, you learn which ones deserve a good deal and which ones were just baggin on ya. I've been very lucky and have never been dissapointed by any of my family members. They have been their for me, when i ask favors of them, so it's worked out pretty good. Only a very few friends have takin my generosity for granted, only to find out, that now they pay FULL PRICE or take it elsewere. Bottom line, it's a tough call when your in business and ONLY YOU will be able to 'instinktively' know how much, if any, good deals you can afford to do give and to whom. I have NO REGRETS on the way it worked for me, but each persons family and freinds can vary a ton. THERE IS NO FORMULA. best wishes.
yeah i too understand when it comes to helping out a friend/family. a fair trade for a fair trade i don't mind. or even if i have a buddy who wants work done, who is low on cash and is upfront about it. im sure we could work something out, as long as he aint afraid to get his hands dirty. this post stemmed from old friends who you never see then all of a sudden popping up and reminding you of all the "good times" we USED to have. these kinda "friends" were the question. something in that nature happened and the guy didn't get that i do this for a living now. after mentioning all he wanted done, he still had the audacity to say "hook me up (free) & when its done, i'll say you did it." just cause he goes to alot of shows, like he was doing me the favor. this post was my way of venting is all. these types of friends aint friends just cause you share a couple of drunk teenage memories...
I always said if someone has to make a monitary sacrifice because we are friends then why don't they pay MORE. I always gave my friends a break but you know, my 2 or 3 BEST friends always did give me extra when I tried to do it for cost. And I mean extra as in more than I would have charged Joe Blow. Ask the "friends" who want a deal if they would work for free tomorrow for you.
Dante,I know exactly where your coming from. I gotta feed my kids,keep the wife happy and get a case of buds once in a while too. I get "buddies"grindin me and whining to me about getting a deal. So I have the perfect answer that I say to them... "If you get me a deal at the grocery store and the gas station on the way home I'll give you a smokin deal!" That line gets em every time. I look at it this way also... If you charge say $40/hr and your buddy says "hey how about $25 cash an hour for me." I say "ok,as long as you don't tell my wife and kids where the extra $120 a day went when I can't pay my bills." The barter system only works if the wife don't find out! Or if you have money in the bank from real customer jobs! Or if you have spare time(yeah right!)and can get away from real paying jobs. I got a good line from a buddy who owns a construction compay.... He says to me one day when we were talking about this exact topic... "I don't build houses to make friends,I build houses to make a living".....Shiny
I read all of your replies to your initial post. I am a former APD adjuster for Farmers insurance, so I have a very good idea of what kind of work that is actually required repairing a vehicle mechanically as well as structurally/visually. Dante, It sounds like you know what's up with this chump! You've already got his #! When my "friends" hit me up for speed equipment, I let them know that it costs me to make it,my time to take patterns to the foundry,machine it as well as dealing with advertising & business expenses. I give people a break where I can, If there's no room,then "Oh Well" I guess that they really didn't need the stuff. If they really want to know how it is, I have them talk to Jim & Paul @ Cook's, They'll set em straight.
funny how this comes up now. i'm doing some graphic design work for a kid that i used to be pretty tight with, and he told me to make 2 flyer designs for some event he's throwing. i say, ok, $100/flyer design. he says OK. he pays me $60 up front. i start work. i put in about 8 hours of work into both of these flyers, but it's no problem; he's a homie so i don't mind. i call him tonight to check up on some things with this project, and he says he has my money. and i say, great, $140, right? he says, WHAT no, $40. i say, you asked me to make you 2 flyers at a $100/each, so that's $200 total. the difference is $140. he tells me he just wanted to see two designs so he could pick one to print. i tell him he should've told me that earlier, because i've already invested a good amount of time into this project. he starts to feel bad and suggests that he will throw in an extra $20 in addition to the $40. i say no, you give me an additional $50 after that $40 and i'll call it square. but i was pissed. i was pissed for this guy insulting me with his extra $20. i was pissed at him for not being clear in the beginning. mainly though, i was pissed at myself for losing control of the process by not making sure i was clear on these things before i started working. the lesson of this story is if you're going to do work for friends, even if you give them "bro" deals, make sure you draw up the necessary invoices, contracts, etc with as much of the details as possible. do the job as if it were a stranger giving you the work. make sure these documents have clear statements that making changes to the project as outlined in the work agreement will cost them the normal fee + an additional $x/hr. and also make sure, even if it's for friends, that they are aware you cannot be held liable for shop accidents and the like that may damage their ride. if these friends are good friends, they will understand and sign the agreement. if they aren't... you'll know. aloha, matt
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt, it's up to you as the business owner, to explain to each customer, what you are charging him for. The way you have explained this transaction, i would favor the CUSTOMER. If you value any future business with him, then you should step up to the plate and eat crow on this one. YOU can't expect him to be at fault for not understanding how your business is run and what you do and don't expect payment for. Learn from this one and chock it up to experience, give him the benifit of the doubt, unless you'r intent on blameing him for not knowing how you run your business and what you expect payment for.
actually, he said 2 designs, and we agreed on $200 total, $100/design. i don't know how much more CLEAR you can get, on what i expect them to pay. it's my fault though for not putting it into writing, and the next time it will be absolutely clear. it can't be helped if he hires me to do a project and doesn't tell me everything i need to know. that's like if someone came to the original poster and asked to fix the hole in his door for 50 bucks and later on came back and said oh what i thought the 50 bucks was for the hole in the door AND the hole in the trunk. like i said before, my fault for not documenting, and getting them to sign the agreement so we're both on the same page. and i've already eaten that cost. but he should have told me that it was his intent to have 1 finished product and not the 2 designs for $100 per design as we agreed before i started work. if i had the whole thing as a contract as i usually do, he would've not been in the right. but anyway you've got me thinking, so i'd like to know what other people think as well. matt
That was in no way directed at you guys Lucky sorry if you thought it was, now get your asses moved over here dammitt!!!
This is why I have D working on my ride, and when he told me how much all I said was when can you start.
I'm not out of my mind... I just know that a true friend wouldn't even ASK you to do something for free... they would offer to pay... but I wouldn't take their money. It all evens out anyway.
This will be, probably, my last thoughts on this topic. I've met Dante, he's a real nice dude and one hell of a fabricator. See his tech post on making a grill surround for a '54 Ford. Really great work, almost NO body filler, all the work is in metal. He knows his shit. I also met his family at the HAMB picnic last time in Long Beach. The man absolutely dotes on his daughter. That shows the quality of human being that he is. I would always pay his going rate because he WILL make time for his family and thus deserves to have a profit and the time for a personal life. Lots of guys here are single and won't understand this, but Living well and taking care of the family are a good gauge of the type of person you are dealing with. I don't use the HAMB to find the cheapest deal, the good ol' HAMB has been a source for finding the BEST craftsmen for this work. PS: Dante, I will bring some work to you. Money is TIGHT right now. But, it'll get better. cp
I agree that buddies should help out buddies. Sometimes you have to define who is a "buddy" though. Now if it's a job that you need done quick...better go elsewhere. Better to have it done right than right away. I recently got some work done that was done at cost. I'm fully appreciative. I'm not saying it's a flawless job but it still looks nice and a lot better look for my car. I told my friend that I'd always remember him giving me a break and would help him out anytime I could. That goes for other friends who have helped me. I always try to repay kindness. It's what buddies and cars are about....getting together...having a couple drinks...helping put the car on the road or upgrading it...or just helping him out in general. It's just what buddies do. I second that....Lucky, get your cabooses down here already. Agrv8r Mike
If my freinds want help working on their cars I'll help but if their AC breaks their going to pay just like every body .
After some time, you tend to get blunt I haven't read thru this post yet, but I'm pretty sure I know where it has gone
Friends are the hardest to do work for. I am in that situation right now with a "friend" that wanted me to suicide his doors on his "mini-truck". I told him that I would do it (with his help) for $500.00 (he had the hinge kit already), and it would be done afterhours (I wouldnt touch it during shop hours). He would make an appointment for the next available slot. Right now he is pissed because "I" havent doen his doors yet. He never followed through on making an appointment, never gave me a deposit (which I require just to hold a slot in my schedule). He used to come by the shop EVERY DAY, now he comes maybe once a week ( he even works right around the corner). Real friends wont ask for a "deal", real friends can wait for quality work, and real friends wont change their visiting habits just because you arent working on their ride. From now on, I charge normal labor rate (unless they have or can do something I absolutely know they can come through on) parts get a small discount if there is room to do so.
Ive learned the hard way , About 5 mins into every job im kicking my own ass ! I dont do side jobs anymore . period . Its hard with the bros sometimes but ill help THEM do little shit . Someone told me ... hourly rate no matter who it is . They dont like it , tough shit . Like another post says if they are your friends they will understand . I would cut them a tiny break if you could afford to .
True friend=free labor Friendly person=paying customer One more thing....a TRUE Friend will insist you take money....even if you don't want to charge him.
This one is going on and on and I don't usually buy into these oversubscribed threads but this time I will. I reckon there are two scenarios here: 1. Your friends want you to do the work because of the quality they know they will get and how lucky are they to have an IN with a good body man...so they should be happy to pay full price to a mate. 2. Your friends just want some body work done by someone and because they happen to know you, they figure that's good enough for them. If they don't want you for your quality and don't like the price of quality, they should shop around and not feel they have to come to you just 'cause they know you. Either way you continue to do quality work (no compromises) and get paid the right rate. All this assumes, of course, that you are good. And from this post I think you are. All the best, Pete
Ask youself this question. Will they give you those old Halibrands sitting in the back of their shed for free? I guess you could cut 'em a brake, the guy that does my upholstery work cuts me a brake, but I have to wait 'til he has time between jobs to get it done. And he doesn't loose money on the job. If they are comming to your place for work done give them an estimate just like everyone else. Maybe give them a discount if you can live with that and let them know its a discount. If they can't live with that they can always go somewhere else. Business is business. When I was still building motors for folks strangers always paid full price and folks I knew always paid about 10% less, with the understanding that the discount wasn't public knowledge.
Its a tought deal. Don't mind at all to help a guy out, quicky welding job or what ever but when it comes to big time consuming stuff, I really would rather trade out work. Done Hot Rods for Trees and Interiors, Wiring for Blasting, trade labor for stuff. Everyone goes home happy that way, Handed "Friends" Bills in the past for big work and they get pissed so trading the best way to go.
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