I have a 241 Red Ram that runs o.k. but not at full potential. The cam is worn, some valves stick and some barely move. But it still hits 70mph on the freeway. I want to put in a new cam and change the valves, valve springs and valve seats, maybe new rings. Do I need to rebuild the whole thing (the engine)or will that be enough to make it last a little longer? I want to drive it a few more months and sell after next summer. My old man is a retired master mechanic and says to do the whole thing and doesn't want to hear anything else. He says "it's like taking a shower and not washing your ass". I dont have a few thousand dollars laying around.
it is up to you..i have repaired many engines that lasted for alot of miles..then i have had some that something else (like oil pumps,bearings and leaking rear seals) go out after major work on another part of the engine disturbed them...but in the end it is your wallet and gut feelings that you will have to go by
My two boys would say the same about me,But as I tell them, I'm not just telling them shit for something to say! Your call totally,you probably know what you should do.
I did a top end overhaul on a worn motor for a friend (It was his decision) A week later he pulled the motor out, because the higher compression had blown the big end bearings.. If you're selling it in the near future, leave it alone..
Fix the top end and drive it.... at 7 to 1 CR I doubt getting the compression back will break anything on the bottom end. Sure lots of guys will advocate rebuilding the whole deal but if you ain't got it ($$$) what else is there to do but repair it. After all they used to call them "Repair Shops" not "Rebuild Shops".
One of the biggest problems with these engines was the lack of positive crank case ventilation. When I tore my 270 down the inside of the engine looked like it was covered with asphalt or hardened tar. It blocked half of the oil passages. I had to drill the oil holes in the rocker assemblies. I don't believe in partial rebuilds. You stand to loose the whole thing especially if the oil galleys are plugged
The PCV was only part of the problem. The non-detergent oils of the day were the main culprit... and everyone switched to a 160F t-stat during the summer or left out the t-stat altogether. Back in the day a top end refresher was a normal deal every 40-50K... that's why they sell "valve grind" gasket sets. In a perfect world he could afford a complete rebuild...
Why not just add rings and bearings to the mix when you pull it down? If it were mine I'd pull the engine, take it apart and clean the block out, hone the cylinders, clean it again and reassemble it with new rings on the original pistons along with a new set of rod and main bearings. That would probably add a couple of hundred to the job but in the end you should have and engine that you can run for another 70/80 thousand if the taper in the cylinder bore isn't too bad and probably 50 K if it is worn a bit more than desirable. Not the perfect engine that you dad would like to see but a reliable one that will give you several years of service. Even if I didn't change the rings I'd change the rod and main bearings and clean out the pan and crankcase.
If it runs "OK" & you're going to sell it, I'd leave it alone. Now then, if it performed a lot better if done...is there a chance on keeping it? They have a nominal C/R or 7 or 7.1:1 but @ least one measured out @ an actual 6.19! Rebuild it with custom 9 or 10:1 pistons, matching cam grind, ect. you might find enough improvement to keep it. check out the 241 build @ www.webrodder.com
Doing a complete rebuild is the "correct" way ... BUT a complete rebuild will cost $$ (always more than you thought) and you will probably get just as much for the car (after next summer) if the engine is (still) running well, regardless if it was rebuilt or not. The engine definitely (according to you) needs a cam (and lifters). It would also benefit from head removal so you can clean the valve stems and guides to help prevent the valves from sticking BUT you might be able to just remove the valve springs (with the heads still on the engine so you don't have to pay for new head gaskets) and lube/oil the stems while working the valves by hand to free them up. One other thing I would suggest would be a fresh timing chain though (it's right there when you pull the cam) and valve seals. I honestly can't see you needing new valves/springs etc Once again, a full rebuild is the correct thing to do, but in this case I'd only give it what it needs. If after changing the cam and lifters and freeing up the valves (with the heads on) you find that it runs like crap, you have only lost the cost of your time, the intake gaskets, and the timing cover gasket. You still have the fresh cam/lifters and timing chain to use in your full rebuild. Based on your expectation of selling, I'd try to put as little money as possible into it.
I'm with the "all or nothing" crowd. If you're going to sell it soon, why mess with it? If you're going to keep it, I like the idea of rebuilding with higher-compression slugs. Once you break the "factory seal," it should all come apart and the oil galleys cleaned and cleaned again.
What is 'full potential' for a 58 year old engine with 7:1 cr? How do you know how much wear is on the cam? If some valves stick and others barely move please explain how you get it to 70 without now having a death rattle. One of the biggest mistakes on engines like this is to disturb the caked-on sludge that is likely to be found everywhere inside. If you take it apart then plan on stripping and tanking everything even if you put all of the stock, wornout pieces back in. Once you get everything clean you will no doubt find that a full on rebuild is in order. Can you afford to spend $4500 dollars on a car that you plan to sell? Will you get your money back in the sale? To put in a 'new' cam, means regrinding yours. This will also require adjustable pushrods. Cam, lifters, pushrods, gaskets, t-chain set and freight will run up to a $1000. This is not a 318 and neither are the parts prices. .
It depends on what the motor looks like when you tear it down. As already stated, no matter the condition, I would change the main, rod, cam bearings and rings (no matter what). The cost of these parts is minimal when compared to the of labor getting to them. (no matter who does the work) Do you need new pistons, a cylinder bore and/or other machine work? you can only know this answer by inspecting and measuring.
You all made a good point but, $4500 is not in the cards. I can hit 70 occasionally, and it does rattle. We removed the valve covers and see two three of the rockers barely move on one side, thats why I think the valves are sticking. It's been suggested to change springs/valves etc, because we run unleaded gas? I dont know how much of that is true. I haven't checked cr but should get to that soon. If I did open the wallet on this, I would have to keep it. I would like to be a home owner again in the coming year and this car will be one of the things I sacrifice. I know the ol man is right, but if it was up to him, the car would be all original.
All the 241s should have hardend valves & seats in them. Springs have probably weakened after 60 yrs.
I guess it depends on the condition of the rest of the engine. Is the lower end on its last legs or not? I did an FE top ( yea I know apples to orages) in '03 and drove it until '04 everyday then aprt of the time until '05 when I sold it to a fella in texas. he came up with a toe vehicle that layed doen on him and he used the galaxie to tow the tow vehicle to a town to get it fixed. he then proceded back to texas and drove it dailey for a long time. I am not sure that he isn't still driving it. But my bottom end was tight it just needed the top gone through. getting back to it I suppose it depends on the condition of your lower end.
Welcome to the fabulous world of vintage Hemis. Like MOST vintage V8's of this era they are usually expensive to rebuild. The other option is to let it catastrophically fail and then spend MORE money. Old cars with old engines (especially Hemis) simply cost money to own. To me it's part of being a "care-taker" of sorts. For this reason, I side with your old man; at least on the engine anyway. You know it's tired, you've stated it here, you know what has to be done. If it's not your daily driver, I would save up to get the parts you need, do some horse trading, maybe a little side work, whatever you have to do to refresh that engine the RIGHT WAY. Do it once, do it right, that way you can enjoy the car (and the Hemi) for what it is. They're great engines. They're worth it and you won't be sorry you did it! Sometimes owning cool old cars just requires a little bit of "financial work" as well. All part of the experience! Just my opinion though... However, I do understand your position. Just have to decide where your heart is at and think about what's best for that car and for you.
If it's a worn as you say, I believe you are taking a big chance on anything short of a complete rebuild. I'm kinda in the same place with a 331 truck hemi I bought used. The big difference is that mine runs perfect; good oil pressure, no noises, good compression, and no overheating problems. I am going to tear it down, hone it, re-ring it, clean it out (especially the valve train), re-gasket it, and I should be good to go. Of course, if I find anything suspect after I tear it down, it's back to the drawing board. Long story short, it's a crap shoot taking a chance on an engine with obvious existing problems, and the odds are pretty long against you.
Hey Scooter, I love the HEMI more than the rest of the car. That HEMI is what sweetened the deal. I was looking for a shoebox at the time but because of that HEMI, I bought the car. Between you, and the rest of the fellow hambers, I'm leaning towards the rebuild. Considering the way it runs now, I dont think I'll need to replace everything. Besides, I dont want to fly to Viva this year, I wanna drive their.
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