Cross steer VS Suicide steer

Like some have mentioned, the correct term is not suicide steering, it is either traditional steering (al what the Model A had originally) or cross steering (using something like a Vega box)

I also agree it is BS that you will get bump steer with traditional steering IF you engineer it correctly. I have a 56 Ford pick up steering box in my 27 that has been in there forever. Never a hint of bump steer.

Some say the drag link should be parallel to the ground, but actually it is better if the arc of that draglink intersects the mounting point of the wishbone or radius rods so that the two move up and down together and do not fight one another. If they swing on a different arc it will push the steering arm on the wheel back and forth, giving bump steer.

Don

 

Hey that's my wife??????????????

 

********! If the push/pull (suicide) is set up with correct geometry you will not have bump steer issues . It is all about setting it up with box in correct location
in relation to rear hairpin mount.

Also , you should not be running a tube axle with hairpins, use a I beam with hairpins . Tube axle should be 4 bar'd .
AGREE, MY "SUICIDE" STEERING HAS NO BUMP STEER, PERFECTLY EVEN TIRE WEAR, DOESNT PULL, EVER, NO SLOP. I USE SPLIT WISH BONES AND A '51 F1OO STEERING GEAR, DISC BRAKES.

 

Used both. Drag link length is major consideration.

 

Stop calling it "suicide steering" will ya????
It's hard enough to have a discussion sometimes when the proper terms are used...this mislabeling of stuff only makes it harder as newbies grab onto it and start to use it in THEIR posts.

Someone should find and repost that "Hot Rod terminology" list.

 

Good info Don's, thanks!

 

Thanks guys for all the good info .

If anyone has pix they can post that would be helpfull on how to mount everything.


Why can't i use hairpins with a tube axle what are the problems with this setup


Mike

 

An I-beam will allow some torsional twist as one side go up and the other doesn't, the hairpins travel in an arch. A tube axle is too rigid and will try to break a clevis or something. It will also make it ride rougher if it doesn't break something, everytime you hit a bump it will try to lift the other tire.

 

Just a thought. Has anyboby ever run a rubber bushing in at the front of (One) of the hairpins to take the twist.

 

Mike what kind of car are you building. Can you post some pictures it will help. The thing with a straight axle and buggy spring is the drag link should be parallel with the hair pins, wishbones or radius rods. Mike my avitar has a Corvair reversed box with ( push pull ) steering and it worked fine. Hope this helps.

 

I've been into rods since the early 60's and I've never heard that either.

 

Hot rod terminology:
Suicide front end. Transverse spring mounted behind the axle with no part of the frame extending over the axle. When spring, shackle or perch failure occurs, the ch***is falls to the road with not so pleasant consequences.
Bull dog front end. Transverse spring mounted over top of front axle such as Ford did from 1908 to 1934 ....typically described this way on open wheeled hot rods.

Much of this terminology transferred over to hot rodding from the dirt track racers of the 1930s and 40s, 50s.

 

Study the steering box you use carefully!
A friend of mine wanted a nicer steering 327 powered '31 Chev roadster. So, out with the '31 box and in with a '62 Falcon box. Nice installation...however, when he steered to the right, the roadster went left.

 

Mustang box in this coupe.

 

Here's the side-steer setup on my roadster, using a Vega box..I tried as much as possible to get the links the same length, all the pivot points and links parallel and in line vertically.. Mine steers great and haven't been plagued with bumpsteer..
Stan

 

Very interesting!

 

With Side steer you need to be aware that a hairpin set up is different geometry to a 4 bar set up . Go back to Dons hotrods post (#31) with the diagram . With a hairpin set up the draglink from the steering box to the spindle does NOT run parallel
to the hairpin , the pivot point on the drop arm / draglink needs to be as close as possible to the rear hairpin pivot in order to keep the draglink moving in the same arc as the hairpin. ( if you can't manage this draw a line from the spindle to hairpin pivot and place draglink pivot on this line - will get you pretty close).

With 4 bar the draglink should be as close as possible to the same length as
the 4 bars and should run parallel . ( if you look at the red coupe posted above with the mustang box - IDEALLY it should have a longer pitman arm to keep the geometry correct)


.

.

 

I think the expression started when the buggy spring was hung out in front of the ch***is and the spindles were reversed because the tie rod would not have any room to work behind the axle the suspension was very low so the tie rod was not protected by the drooped axle and can be hit by anything and therefor loose steering ability. Back in the day ?

 

Ding! The laws of physics may be hard for some to understand for some, but the are laws. Unlike the laws of man, which you are free to break as you see fit (with varying results), you will never break a law of physics. Attempting to do so may have disastrous results.

 

x2!!!!!

 

I think the expression started when the buggy spring was hung out in front of the ch***is and the spindles were reversed because the tie rod would not have any room to work behind the axle the suspension was very low so the tie rod was not protected by the drooped axle and can be hit by anything and therefor loose steering ability. Back in the day ?

 

Agreed , i do understand know , thankyou

I'm putting together a 41 ford pu , thanks for the info and nice looking coupe

You need to get out more LMAO i'm just kidding no harm no foul , i got the word suicide steer from the internet on a few cars i seen and typed it in to google image and got some pix of suicide sterring which is called traditional side steer as i know it now , i laern something new every minute ( i have know it all kids and i am married lol)

Thankyou

Know that would **** and funny at the same time , not something i would do i have build about 50 prostreet and race cars , i have had alot of old tin just never built a hot rod always used modern day susp. like struts etc.

Very nice thanks for the pic

Stan thankyou for the detailed pix , i love the look and brother i am going to use my vega box now after seeing your setup , very nice and clean that what i was looking for i wasen't sure if you could turn the box on its side .
Thanks agian

Thanks for taking the time to post all this good info

We won't be doing that the drag link will be behind the axle

Very true safer is always better and wit all the info i have gathered here i will build a safe front end , no need to die today we'll save that for some other time lol

LMAO if the admin said it was ok and i wouldn't get banned i would post some here , they are all very tasefull and not volgur she is clothed just not alot but i don't think a blind man would be able to tell LOL

Thanks to everyone who has posted pos. or neg. you took the time to help and i appreciate it , i have learned alot and i know you can do a search but don't kid your selfs i did but you know sometimes it just good to make contact with you guys to get to know and for you guys to get to know me , if everyone just did a search there wouldn't be much chatter on here and when some poeple tell others to do a search when they could have helped that person out , whats the big deal that what forums like this are here for if you don't want to answer or help your fellow hot rodder out just keep to your self why be an a$$ , not saying this has happened to me here or anywhere else but i have seen it happen here to others more than anywhere else , well enough with the ranting back to hot rodding.


If anyone has anymore pix of the vega box used in the traditional steer i would like to see them

Thanks Mike

 

Mike: You're welcome on the pics... BTW ,thats also the Vega pitman arm.. I had to heat/bend it to get in the line I wanted. I just filed out the "index-spline " ,so I could rotate it to where I needed it.. So far,it's been mounted up for several years like that & no leaks...
If you need any more info, just shoot me a p/M
Stan

 

Stan thankyou for your pix you have inspired me to use my vega box and i will make a set of 4 bars up .

You have one hellova hot rod there , if i have any questions i will contact you

And thanks agian

This is a great site tons of info and alot of great poeple

Mike

 

Ok one more question do i need to run a panard bar or can i get away without one

Mike

 

Absolutely correct. Please this is as important as not using the R word to describe a jalopy.

Side steer set up correctly will drive and handle just fine. I like a cross steer myself but on an open wheel car a side steer just looks better and you have less problems to deal with clearance wise as a rule. I like F-1 and first gen F100 boxes. But early mustang boxes work well also. I would shoot for a '65/66 if it was me.


I do not agree with the tube axle 4 link rule. That is street rod thinking and you only really need to run a 4 link if you have only begun building in the last 20 years. They worked fine with hairpins for us for a long time before the big scare and off shore axles became the norm.

 

Mike, I'd run a panhard bar, You'll get better stability. I'd also try to incorperate a steering stabilizer, So-Cal makes a nice one for about 80 bucks. They claim that every dropped axle front that leaves thier shop has one. I've got mine ordered.

 

So your saying that a hairpin setup will work and be safe with a tube axle.

why do you need to run a panard bar on a 4 bar and not on a hairpin setup ??

 

I'm in the anti panhard bar camp, millions of cars and trucks run around without them. If a person has a problem with the sway then put more tension/preload to the spring.

I think the panhard bar looks busy...to each their own.

Hair pins are fine with a tube axle as they twist and flex, longer the better. A Ford wishbone by it's design has no flex, or VERY little.

 

I have to agree with you i don't like the look of the panhard bar setup and i don't understand why poeple say you need one with a 4 bar and not with hairpins i'm just wondering why ??