Hi all new guy here, I have a plymouth 230 flattie, 53 or 54 I believe. It was transplanted by a previous owner into my 53 dodge 4x4 truck from a car, I got the info from the stamping on the side of the block. It has a Ball and Ball carter 1 barrel on it that is in pretty bad shape. Leaking gas, throttle shaft worn, throttle lever about to fall off etc. I'm thinking of adding a 2 barrel, stromberg, holley, weber, or something for maybe a little more pep. Can any of you guys give a recommendation for a carb, a 2bbl to 1bbl adapter, somewhere to get them cheap as I can, and what a decent starting jet size would be for a 230 flattie? Thanks, Then I have to figure out points and condenser and what I should time this thing at. Right now it's struggling to get to 2500rpm on any incline whatsoever with 4.89 gears..
You can get a Weber/Holley progressive 2 barrel for $85 and an adapter for around $20. They work well on a six but in your case it might be like hanging a new chandelier in a haunted house. Have you done a compression test? How is your oil pressure? Compression should be 110 to 120 and oil pressure 45 pounds @ 1500 RPM. If those are good you can tune up your motor, if your motor is shot a new carb won't help. By the way it would be easier to buy a rebuilt carb or buy a kit and rebuild your old carb.
Take a look at Langdon's Stovebolts http://stoveboltengineco.com/ . They have Carter/Webbers or Holley/Webbers plus the adaptors. Also Offenhauser dual carb intakes if you are interested in going that way. Langdon's has cast iron Fenton repop headers and the last thing is they offer a mini HEI distributor for the Mopar flatheads. There are photos of all this in my Album. Another company offering new intakes is Edgy Speed Shop http://edgyspeedshop.com/ he also has the finned aluminum heads but they are kind of spendy.
56 Plymouths had an optional 2bbl manifold. They were good for about 8hp. there are a few still kicking around. they used a carter bbd carb.
I haven't done a compression test, the mechanical oil gauge is showing about 60 psi @ 1500 rpm. Can't guarantee accuracy of the gauge, but it does zero out when the engine is off. I have a compression tester so I guess it's just laziness that I haven't checked it yet. I know the carb is in bad shape, it leaks gas and the throttle shaft is worn, likely the plate as well. Not sure if it's the original distributor or not, and I can't read the timing marks on what's left of them on the timing cover. It runs nice and smooth, and I know it shouldn't have much power, but it seems a bit low for even what it should be putting out. Truth told I pulled the engine/trans when I did a frame off resto on the truck, and I planned to put a ***mins 4bt diesel in the truck, but decided to back with the flattie for several reasons. One of which was just time, I had to get the truck drivable in a hurry and out of the garage as I may have to relocate real soon and it'll have to get there on it's own steam. If I can get it running better and get a little more out of it I'll likely pull it for a rebuild in the next year or two. Where would I find a holley/weber for that price? The ones I have seen online were double that. I also have to figure out where to get the right points and condenser, the auto parts stores here are worthless. Without a make/model/year they can plug into the computer they are helpless and totally unwilling to do anything. I asked if they had a dwell meter and nobody working there even knew what one was.. Not that I know what the dwell angle should be set to anyway.
It's a military truck, an M37 dodge power wagon. I had to buy a new intake and exhaust manifold to get the repro exhaust system I put on to fit right, I'd hate to have to buy yet another one. I have the old plymouth intake/exhaust manifolds in the garage, nothing wrong with them, the exhaust outlet was just farther forward than the original military outlet was. I could get a new military one barrel ball and ball, with a built in governor, but they are about $275 and I would have to also buy the military air cleaner parts as the carb has a 90 degree elbow top so the carb inlet is horizontal instead of vertical like most carbs. I'm thinking a rebuilt 2 barrel with a 2bbl to one bbl adapter would be my best bet for now. Just looking for which one, where to get it at a reasonable price, and what jetting I should start at really.
Thanks, I'll give them a call. I figure if I get a new carb on the thing, get it a good tune up, it'll probably do me for a while. If I can get it to perform well enough I may just rebuild it later and just sell the ***mins 4bt/5sp overdrive trans setup I have in the garage and was going to put in it and put a 5sp overdrive Clark trans behind the flattie. Kinda on the fence about the future plans in that regard.
Another good source of parts and info is the Vintage Power Wagon company, you probably already know about them. They are the experts on your 4X4 truck and their prices seem reasonable. Vintage Power Wagons-- Your Source for Dodge Power Wagon Parts and Trucks! -- civilian military m 37, m-37 wc Dodge Power Wagon If your engine has good oil pressure and good compression you should be able to double its horsepower with a tuneup. Well maybe not quite double lol but a BIG improvement. They are a tough motor and will keep on chugging in an advanced state of neglect until they will barely run . But if everything is working right they will surprise you with their power. You will need a manual and probably spark plugs, points, possibly distributor cap, rotor, plug wires etc. Everything you need should be available from your local NAPA store or Vintage Power Wagons. There are no magic tricks just go by the manual. Start with adjusting the valves, then do the ignition, carburetor last. If the carb is really worn out it may be best to replace it. I didn't want you to invest in a new carb $$$$$ bucks then find out you had a worn out motor
Yeah the VPW guys are great. I don't know what manual to use though. I don't think the carb is original from the car the engine came from. I have the truck military manuals, but the carb is not military either. I don't know what distributor I have, it isn't military, the military distributor is a big egg shaped water tight model with the coil mounted internally and it uses waterproof wiring and special spark plugs. Basically the military 230 is sealed everywhere even the breather and crank case ventilation openings have cable operated vent seals and the engine is made to run totally submerged in 4ft of water with a snorkel attached. I don't know what other differences there might be internally as well. I'll go ahead and test compression this weekend but I suspect it'll be good with how the engine runs now, and see if I can't get the valves adjusted according to the military manual. I suppose maybe I should look at a 53-54 plymouth valiant manual or something maybe? I believe that's where the engine came from. The valve clearances I suspect would be the same, dunno about point gap or dwell angle or timing. I guess I could just time by ear and advance until I get some pinging and back off a bit from there like I used to do with OHV engine back in the day. As it is even at 30 degrees outside, it won't even think about starting with any choke applied at all, which surprised me. It does start pretty well with no choke though, and idles after a minute or two of running just fine. Interestingly enough, I used to have a 230 flathead in an old inboard chris craft mahogany boat I had for a while, too long ago to remember much about it though.
part of the problem is the mil specs were built to be low rpm torquers and geared for about 50 mph tops. Remember you are dealing with an engine with almost 5 inches of stroke and plan/drive accordingly. Your rear gears are probably not your best friend as they want to be running about 40 mph
Yup, I already replaced the gears in the diffs from 5:83:1 to a set of 4:89:1 for that reason. I'm going to be looking to swap the trans to a Clark .80 OD as well. But as it is this engine would not even think about pushing that. The original Mil engine was governed at 3k rpm. It was the VPW guys that had me read them the number off the block and told me the engine is from a mid 50's plymouth car. My understanding is that the truck engines were produced on a totally different ***embly line than the car engines and has different internal part like a shot peened crank, chrome rings and valve rotators etc. The military manual is going to be of limited use with this car engine. I found what I think are the correct cap, rotor and points for what I hope is the Plymouth car distributor that's in the truck at Napa. The condensers they show are all 6 volt and I am running 12 volt, not sure what I'll do about that. I also need to figure out where to get an oil filter at for that external oil filter. Napa isn't showing one. edit: edit: found the oil filter now, got cap, rotor, points and filter on the way, already replaced the plugs. Point gap I am reading should be about .014 -.016 32 degree dwell angle, valve clearance hot inlet .008in exhaust .010in Sound about right? Still need to find a progressive 2bbl and an adapter. NAPA also listed all the internal bearings, pistons and rings and pin bushings. Looked up a '54 belvedere with a 230, no idea what kind of car it actually came out of though.
I've been looking at those 2 barrel progressive carbs, Weber DGV/Holley 5200. They are made for a 2.3 liter engine, would one seem a bit small for a 230 at 3.7 liters? Better than the carter one barrel?
Well I found a rebuilt Holley/weber 5200 for a pinto on Epray for $75 and an adapter at weberdirect for $26, we'll see how it goes.. I'm also running a power steering conversion I fabbed up, which is way overpowered using a ham can saginaw PS pump and saginaw PS box, I ordered an internal relief/flow valve kit to lower the internal byp*** valve pressure in the pump down which should help get back a little power as well. I believe it is at 1200psi now, and I only need probably 6-700 psi since the steering geometry is set up for a lot of leverage for the old worm gear manual box. Steers waaay to easy right now.
53 Plymouth engine number should start P24, 54 P25. Both use an Autolite 1AT distributor, important for ordering points cap rotor and condenser. Distributor number is on an aluminum ID plate on the side of the distributor. Points gap .020 + or- .002. Dwell 36-42 degrees. Spark plug AL-AR8 (53) AL-4S-140 (54) Gap .035 Timing mark "DC" mark on vibration damper (53) second line before "DC" mark (54). Valve intake and exhaust, both .010 hot. On a truck that is used hard you can increase exhaust valve clearance to .012 hot.
Well I wrote down the block numbers this morning on the way in to work. The numbers are P26*I47I00*.. The VPW guy told me what this was but I didn't write it down at the time. Does that make it a '55? I'll have a look at the distributor this weekend as well, I don't remember seeing a tag. I went ahead and ordered the rebuilt holley/weber progressive 2bbl and 2-1 adapter, and a remote air cleaner plenum for it to put a remote K&N on for now, and be able to put a snorkel on it later. I also think I have the Delco SI alternator on it wired wrong, as in I didn't put an idiot light in the field circuit, I think it's charging max rate and drawing off even more power I can't afford to spare. Volt meter is reading up around 15-16 volts and never coming down. The idle goes down when I hook that field wire up like it's an AC compressor or something, a lot of draw. I think I need an idiot light in the circuit. Spark seems to be good so I don't know if I need to worry about using a 6 volt condenser on the 12 volt coil. The military system was originally a 24 volt system, it was converted to 12 volts when I got it plus I put in a new reproduction wiring harness from Vintage Wiring of Maine and some new 12 volt gauges. Basically I went through every nut and bolt on this truck, sandblasted everything and primed and painted frame up with heavy duty industrial paint used for offshore rigs in army OD green, replaced every bearing and bushing and rubber part even in the diffs and 2 speed transfer case. I also converted it to 4 wheel disk brakes. The only parts I haven't rebuilt completely are the engine and the 4 speed trans because until last month I hadn't planned on re-using them, and the big Braden winch on the front which I''ll get to later. I'm hoping with a tune up, lowering the pressure relief in the PS pump for less load and better steering feel, dropping the load the alternator is putting on it, and adding the new carb I'll pick up enough power to make it worth keeping the old flattie at least for a while.
Well after spending last weekend in bed wheezing and sneezing with some bug, I got around to working on the truck a bit this weekend. I pulled the PS pump, set the internal pressure relief valve down to around 800PSI with a few shims, and rebuilt the mounting bracket a little stronger. Tried to start her up, and no go. Primed it with some gas and it fired fine a few times, disconnected the fuel line from the carb and no gas. So either the tank was dry, filter was plugged or the fuel pump went bad. I put 25 gallons in the tank last time I drove it and it has a full screen in the tank filler so I know nobody siphoned anything, fuel filter was fine, so I ordered an electric fuel pump figuring it's the diaphragm gone on mine, maybe the alcohol in the gas just did it in as it ran when I parked it. Got my all my parts ready for a tune up, carb ready to go on, all I lack is linkage which I can't figure out until the carb is on. My power issue though could have just been a fuel pump barely giving me any gas. Should run better when I'm done at any rate.
Well the fuel pump was gone, put an electric one on yesterday and she fired right up. Ran better than it did before, significantly better, so it was likely starving for fuel before and the pump just hadn't failed completely yet. The Holley/weber I got for $75 isn't going to work for me. I could make it go on but it's just going to be too much monkeying with everything from the adapter plate to the linkage to the air cleaner so I bought a new weber 32/36 with a manual choke which should be a lot easier to get a nice clean install with, and it should be in this evening or Friday. So Saturday new points/cond/cap/rotor go on, new carb, oil change, timing set as well as I can and we'll see how she goes then.
Well I installed the weber, set it the best I could and started working through standard tuning stuff. I think I found my biggest issue. Bad distributor vacuum advance. I attached a hose and ****ed on it and it will advance slightly but will clearly not hold. Question now is where to get a new one? edit: I can't see the timing marks on the timing cover at all, the timing cover on the military 230 sticks out about an inch and a half past the front motor mount plate, but this one from a car is up behind the plate totally out of sight. I think I'll pull the distributor and check the mechanical advance and set the new points while I have it out on the bench. I think I'll try setting the timing for highest manifold vacuum and go from there by ear. Plenty of hills around here to test loading it up on.
Try NAPA or old time local parts store for the vacuum advance, they are available if you can get a part #. Otherwise Roberts or other spe******t. The distributor is made to come out for service. One bolt holds it down, if you do not disturb the adjustment you can just stick it back in and it will work. But you will have to check the timing once it is back in because the timing changes when you change the points.
Yup, took the distributor down, the advance plate was pretty gummed up, so were the centrifugal weights. Cleaned it all out, lubed the weight contact points up with a little white lithium grease, same for the advance plate sliders, all working easily now. I opened up the advance unit, the rubberization has worn off the diaphragm. Looks like a bunch of gas had gotten into it. I cleaned it up and worked some RTV silicon into the diaphragm and peened it back closed. Still doesn't hold complete vacuum but it holds enough to probably work now with the dist cleaned up. Hopefully it'll get me by until I can get a new one. Just came in to look here and get that point gap setting before I set em and drop it back in and time it. I also didn't like the old cap and rotor, I don't think they were made to work together, either that or the cap center contact spring is broken and jammed up in the cap. Found an advance unit in ebay for $25 The dist is an autolite IAT-4101b, part number 1546755.
Got a bit done today, after having to miss out yesterday as it rained all day. The carb is on and running with a new air filter setup. Ran a compression check and all cylinders re about 110 psi. Went through the distributor and cleaned it up, patched up the vacuum advance and cleaned and lubed the centrifugal advance parts, cleaned up and lubed the breaker plate so it advances easily. New points at .020, new cap and rotor. Road timed it until I just got rid of any pinging. Changed oil. Set the toe in on the truck best I could. The power steering feels a lot better set at 800 psi, there is some feel to it now. I might go another shim and lower it a touch more still. Went over a few other odds and ends that needed work. The truck runs better now than it did when I got it, or than it did last week. It pulls up hills in 4th a bit when it didn't before. I think what I have left now is jetting the 32/36 up as I think it needs bigger idle and main jets. Going to call redline weber for a jet kit tomorrow. The idle speed screw had to be turned in too far to maintain idle speed with a good idle mixture which should mean I need a larger idle jet. I have some stumble when the secondary opens, too lean. So I'm thinking bigger primary and secondary mains, maybe a bigger accel pump jet. If I can get about another 10-15% better power I'll be satisfied.
Ohh forgot to ask, anyone have a good idea of starting jets to put in a weber progressive carb for a 230 flathead?
Well I have been looking around and it seems the jeep guys use a lot of these progressive webers on older jeeps with a 258 6 cylinder. Redline weber offers a 6 cyl jet kit based on this so I ordered one. I figure it's a good starting point to jet it up like redline does for the 6cyl jeep engine conversion kit. Likely a little rich but we'll see tonight as the jet kit should be here this afternoon. If a single 32/36 can run a 258 ohv engine it should handle my 230 just fine seeing as it only has to support about 3k rpm.
Got the jet kit today. Went from 60/50 primary and sec idle jets and 140 main jets to 75/60 idle jets and 150 mains which were the smallest in the kit. I think it's a touch too much and I need a 70/60 idle jets and 145 mains. But even if a touch rich it runs better then it has since I got it. I think I want to add a mini HEI ignition from Langdon next. Only one nagging problem, I couldn't find a good electric fuel pump and the one I have keeps losing prime and giving me problems. I keep having to purge the fuel line. I would suspect it's ****ing air from some kind of fuel line leak but the entire fuel line is brand new steel lines, unless I have a split flare or something. Can't believe no auto parts store around me has anything available for carb (4-7 PSI) besides these nasty little tappety tappety digital fuel pumps.
I found a decent speed shop in town and grabbed a Holley vane pump and fuel issues are gone now.. Now I'm thinking a stovebolt HEI dist, and maybe milling the head a little. Going to pull the diffs front and rear and gear it up from the 5:83 gears in it up to 4.89 so I'll need a little more umph..
Well I got a good day to work today and my brother came over to help.. I swapped out my fan to a pusher electric fan. That gave me room to get in with a timing light to get it times, it was way off, so was dwell, got both set up right. Rechecked compression with a warm engine, all were between 110 and 125, with only one at 110psi #6. Good to go. So all set I had also ordered a wideband Air/Fuel meter, welded the bung into the exhaust pipe about 6-8" below the manifold outlet and ****** her up. The idle mixture was around 12:1, but the engine seems to like that best. The bigger idle jets I put in seem fine, but I had to up the pri and sec jets to the largest I have on hand to get above 15 to 16:1 at wide open throttle which is getting lean enough to hurt things. I went to 155 pri jet, 160 sec jet, the primary seems fine, but ratio drops to about 15:1 when the secondary opens, I guess a 165 or 170 sec jet should cure it. The carb came stock with a pair of 140 jets in it. Truck runs real nice now, except a bit weak at wide open throttle but I figure I'll get a touch more from it when I can get the ratio to about 12.5 or 13:1 or richer from 14-15:1 it's at now. At least it isn't lean enough to burn anything up inside now. Gotts order a couple jets. Was easy with two people also to figure out my gas pedal on the floor was just barely opening up the mechanical secondary. Figured it might be the case but hard to work the gas pedal and see the linkage over under the p***enger side of the engine. Got the linkage set up right, good open throttle now. Ahh and a pic of the beast..
Your experience is fairly typical, a lot of little things wrong dragging down the power. As long as you have good compression and good oil pressure you can usually tune them up real good. Lots of power but not a lot of speed. Easy to drive if you are not in a hurry. There is another way to check timing. There is a screw in plug in the head above #6 piston. You can put a wire or a screwdriver down the hole and feel the piston as it rises and falls, and find TDC. #6 rises and falls with #1.
That's good to know.. My problem is the front motor mount is a big metal piece that spans from frame rail to frame rail and covers the timing cover, so the civilian timing mark on the cover is up almost behind it and really hard to see, impossible with the fan in the way. Putting an electric fan in front of the rad pushing air in cleared up a good 6" of room so I could see the timing mark pretty well. I just wish I had a couple of bigger jets on hand. The engine is m***ively quieter without the fan as well. Gonna take the truck in a 500 mile round trip this week, as long as the bottom and stays together all should be good. Can't do over 50 mph though, 55mph is up close to 3000rpm and that's a bit more then I want to push it.
Did a 500 mile trail by fire trip with the old flattie.. Did ok, I ended up having to scrounge up a better alternator pulley at a tractor shop and replace it, after it became obvious my belts weren't going to last with the slightly mismatched pulley sizes.. Then on the way home I get a loud backfire, pop pop pop and dead... Rolled into a side road, looked at everything, popped the dist cap, and my brand new set of points had broken.. The contact point arm had a crack about 80% across it and bent upwards where it made zero contact.. Nothing with me capable of mcgyvering it either.. And I hadn't thrown the old set in the glove box for backup.. Had to pay for the first tow home I have ever had to pay for in my 52 years on this rock.. I'm not a tow virgin any more.. I have never in thousands of sets of points seen the arm crack in half on a set of points. Anyway the old flattie is now doing 55mph at about 2700 rpm pretty well, and I think I can pull just a little more hp and torque out of it. Got the larger jets for the secondary and they do make a good difference but I think I have to get a little deeper into the weber and look into air correcter jets and tubes, can't get a smooth transition from primary to secondary and a stable A/F ratio as I think I need yet.
The Jalopy Journal
