For out of work and future machinists

Thought any out of work machinists or anyone whose kid is coming up and deciding on a career might find this interesting.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/16/sma...mpaign=Feed:+rss/magazines_fsb+(FSB+Magazine)

 

And what makes it worse is that highschools across the USA are closing down the traditional courses that exposed kids to pursue the machinist vocation.

 

My local high school vo tech center has closed the cabinet shop!!!!! They need a minimum of 10 students and could not get it. I could not believe there was no interest in cabinet making.

 

Yup
My High School sold off all their machining and wood working equipment about 4 to 5 years back..I know the guy that bought it all.

Liability issues are probably one motivator , the other is lack of manufacturing jobs , at least in this area.

Glad I had an opportunity to learn when I did

 

One of my best friends has spent the last 20 years building his small hight-end cabinet making business and is one of the finest in the Boston area and is always in fear of closing his door. His bigger fear is what will he do if he does close his doors?

My next door neighbor's kid who is in his last year at Columbia as an engineer (something to do with aeronautic stress test) has been offered a job with Boeing upon graduation. Starting salary is over $90k with a relocation package across the country.

Think my friend is teaching his son woodworking as anything more then a hobby? It's sad, I agree but it's a sign of the times.

 

We live in a rural area, with some small manufacturing shops, One of my sons is the Metal Shop teacher at the local High School,.. He teaches basic machining, CNC, Fusion,Gas, MIG & TIG, And basic fabrication. There is a large number of students that sign up for the classes,.. In fact some years, there is a waiting list. They compete in MITES, and always end up in the states top 10,... And have quite often come home with first.

My other Son is a CNC machinist / Inspector for a small local machine shop that caters mostly to military avionics contracts.

 

Sadly this isn't a new problem. When I had my collision repair shop (sold 10 years ago) it was difficult to find good, new blood to train/groom into reliable members of the team.

An older high school near my shop rebuilt in the mid 90s, they included an automotive training facility in the plans, built it out too. But somewhere between plan and the grand reopening some brilliant administrator decided the space would be more useful as a warehouse. I asked one of the councelors what was up. Ther reply was something along the lines of "Aw, kids today aren't really into that mechanical stuff, they like electronics and computers better. That mechanical stuff is dirty, and besides it's usually just the drop outs that go into that. They want to make more money than those low end jobs offer." I looked at him and something like, "My top two tehnicians make around $70k a year plus benes and a profit sharing program. How much do you make?" I'm not sure what "uh, uh......" meant. If the councelors believe that here, it's probably pretty much the same across the country.

Thankfully there are post high scholl Vo Techs that still provide training and a potential worker pool, but even there the shops demanded more quality people than those schools could produce. Probably in part the negative perceptions of mechanical work, in part the maddening narrative that tells people some form of they don't have to work, just get a degree and the checks start rolling in (although it looks like young folks are starting to see the lie in that), and in part not all Vo Tech instructors are worth a*****.

Our local Auto Body****ociation worked up a program to promote training, but it has been spotty at best. Sadly, I'm afraid there are too many competing negative messages to overcome effectively. We still got young folks, we just had to work harder at it and attack it in more than one way.

 

Unortunately the advances in CNC machines have really taken their toll on the trade. Machinists who went through a long apprenticeship and learned all the manual ways to produce a product are scarce! Now we have "machine operators" and programmers, so the guy who could make one or two parts to exacting specs is tough to find, and big shops don't appreciate these men who spent their lives improving their talents.
I have a friend who's about 50 yrs. old and is the only machinist in a large shop who's actually been through an apprenticeship. They do a lot of really large machining and have several lathes that can turn 40' ship shafts, and large diameter material up to 8' dia.
The shop sends him all over the world to do on site machining that even the places he goes can't do because they don't have the skills. Still the shop doesn't appreciate his talent and constantly makes life miserable for him. I think they resent the fact that he's more talented than all the people above him.

 

What training would you need to work at a machine shop?

 

I took my 4-year tool & die apprenticeship through the NTMA. I have their certificate, but my company at the time wouldn't play ball with their guidelines, so I don't have the official NY State shingle.

I think it's great to see thm being active again. I had some great instructors and enjoyed the classes.

Today, that traditional apprenticeship link is lost in the trade. I see guys showing up as "machinists" who are at best only CNC operators. And they have the balls to call themselves a machinist.

Fortunately any real machinist I know that has any talent is always in demand. I've been turning the handles for 31 years and also do the CNC thing.

Bob

 

I graduated high school in 1958,, took machine shop courses four years. I went into the service (Army) a year later. Made my living with this education,, I had machine equipment at home, recently sold the machines to a young man with tons of energy and lots of potential. These times are way different,, I am concerned for the younger generation and their chance to do as well as I have in my lifetime.

 

I now machine only on my terms. I have my own part time business and do work for several shops and do custom boat work as well. There are very few shops that I would want to work in. Even the ownership quality has gone downhill in the last couple of decades. I know machine shop owners that I would not classify as a machinist. They are an embarrassment to the trade.

Bob

 

I interview people for a friend of mine who owns a shop. I like to see a 2-year trade school degree, a solid work history and some smarts. I would accept a BOCES type of certificate and the applicant should be able to do shop math, know trigonometry and know basic machining formulas off the top of his head. And of course blue print reading is key.

We took it to the next step recently with interviews to sift out the non-qualified and came up with an oral "test" of sorts. We ask things like how to square up a block on a Bridgeport, how to figure an RPM for a specific material and end mill size, what an STI tap is (screw thread insert = helicoil), some basic trig standards, pull out a print and ask: list the tools needed to make the part, how they would make the part, what limits are on specific dimensions, etc.

Bob

 

There is a lot more to it than pushing the on*****on. A good machinist knows how to wire his machine, which may include 110, 220 or 440 volt wiring. He would have an understanding of hydraulics. He should have a good understanding of metallurgy. They also weld and can read a blueprint. That is mostly learned at the same time they learn about the tooling on the machines.

 

Interesting responses.

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" /><st1:stockticker>CNC</st1:stockticker> capability provides a giant output advantage over manual machining methods and the several skilled manual machinists I have taught it to have seen their productivity and wage explode. It’s true that some folks peak at “button pusher” but when led by those in the know they can be very productive. Fortunately my area still goes by the traditional 4 year apprenticeship and government testing/certification to obtain a journeyman ticket but sadly a majority of kids think they can get wealthy without getting dirty hands. My philosophy is to exploit the technology to the fullest, not be defeated by it.

 

I receintly completed a one year training program in machining at Texas State Technical College in Harlingen. I was hired by the first place I applied to. I have learned a ton during my first 6 months on the job and still have a lot to learn. I am fortunate enough to be under a fantastic supervisor who forgives my mistakes and teaches me anything I ask about. I'm loving the work and am looking forward to the pay increases that will hopefully come with more experience.

 

I live in Baveria, Germany which is pretty much the workshop of the world. China only overtook Germany in exports last year. We have machining shops everwhere, in new industrial estates which seem to pop up everywhere, in farmers barns in remote villages. You can get CNC work done in every village round here. And we have the same problem. Not enough engineers. The politicians keep coming up with new ideas how to attrack skilled labor from abroad, India, Poland etc but no one wants to come here. I think most get put off by the language barrier.
The point is though they have failed to train enough young people in the right skills. I think IT was over rated in the 2000s. There is a limit to how many system administrators we need.

 

I don't think the problem was that white collar work was overrated it was more people saw the stead flow of blue collar work out of North America for the almighty dollar. You can't expect the same number of people to be trained or want to learn a skill when the number of jobs is dwindling as it was before the recession hit. Or expect people who lost their jobs to overseas production to not have retrained themselves and found other work. Only now that manufactures are able to get people to work for lower wages are they bringing the manufacturing and thus the skill positions back so it is no wonder there are not enough people to fill the jobs. The manufacturers are as much or more to blame than anyone for the problem.

 

For the past 6 weeks I've been working as an engineering mentor with the local high school robotics club, designing and building a robot to play a basketball game. We're working in the wood shop, which is no longer a wood shop...no teacher....

The program that this robot is for is designed to get kids interested in becoming engineers. The odd thing is that I spend most of my time with the students playing "shop teacher".

And the Career Technology (formerly VoTech) side of schools continues to be completely separate from the science/math side.

I don't have any answers....there is a shortage of knowledgeable, skilled folks both in the engineering side of things, and in the machining side.

But I'll continue to do the little bit I can to get more kids into doing this stuff....it's a blast watching kids who didn't know what a screwdriver was last year, build a very complicated and capable machine this year.

 

Being one of the people who has lost their factory job because of the economy I fully understand the whole problem as stated. Various jobs I did include centerless grinder operator, press operator, tube cutter and tube machining. Most jobs in a high output job are task oriented verses being fully flexible operations. I also took a semester of tech school welding and machine shop 22 years ago and am a certified aircraft mechanic. However most current jobs are CNC which is fine, but I have no real experience with them. PLC and other machine controls and adjustments I am very familure with and likely could learn CNC rather easily if given the chance. Most employers currently do not want to take the short time it would take to get me over the learning curve. Why, I have no idea as I already have the majority and understanding of the rest of the skill set. I think the real problem is based on employer attitude towards job seekers that are on the bubble. Rod

 

If there is any way possible, go to school and learn CNC machining yourself.

 

I graduated in1978 and started as an apprentice that fall. That has been my job status for all these years. When ever they will pay you more to sit at a desk and type than work in a trade that most of the time requires lots of different knowledge,furnishing your own expensive hand tools,and being dirty, which way would you go. Alot of times I think I screwed up. Most employers also promise you the moon but never produce. Now they are getting what most of them deserve.

 

This problem is twofold: 1) public policies promote intellectual pursuits over technical, value-adding skills like machining, not just in education, but in an economy that makes it too easy to outsource manufacturing, and 2) companies aren't willing to invest in their own work force. The only organization around here who has an significant apprenticeship program is the Naval Shipyard. Private industry just wants to whine that they can't get experienced workers. But it's a catch-22 that you have to be in the job already in order to get it.

I may have ended up pursuing an engineering degree, but the shop classes I took in high school, and the basic machining experience I got in college went a long way in helping me design for manufacturing; letting a kid apply mathematics in the real world boosters their learning. By the way, for that kid that took that 90K aeronautical engineering job, it won't be long before Boeing starts shipping that kind of work to India and China, unless we start realizing that finance, law, medicine, hospitality, and this generic "business" education that seems so popular now, do not add value to an economy: only manufacturing does.

 

Well, I spent 7 years as an apprentice machinist in one of the last all manual job shops in this area. I have never touched a CNC machine and have operated up to 5’ swing lathes to pre WW-I milling machines. A CNC machine to us was a 60’s turret lathe or a Bridgeport with digital readout. Once many of the parts were finished they had to be welded together (Mig or Tig) and guess who also did that. The skills I learned there I will use and improve on for the rest of my life. My high school had no metal shop (only wood and now that’s gone) and I was the only one in my school who worked at a job like that. After 7 years I grew tired of it as a career (I love it as a hobby) and decided to move on. What am I doing now? Sitting at a desk doing paperwork at a full benefits job that includes a company truck. Sounds good I guess, but I would rather be working in a machine shop or better yet a rod shop using my skills. How many people out there have the talent but are doing something else?

 

Here's one source for training materials for the self starter:

http://www.toolingu.com/dept-300-cnc-training.html

On the overall I think employers have learned that skilled operators/machinists need to be trained in house and are not going to just walk in the door. Hearing that they learn way more from me than what is taught in the technical school seems to validate this. Every shop is going to take a different approach to training so those that don't invest end up being the losers.

 

With the price of COBRA insurance and my daughters current medical condition along with those bills. I would have to file bunkrupcy within a month of enrolement. Situations being differnet I would sure be willing. Rod

 

My place of work is hiring people now that come in saying they can run the HAAS cnc's we have ,they hire them and when you tell them to program a job they look at you like your talking Chinese and say"well all I had to do before was hit the start*****on and change pieces"

I had to explain to my boss the difference between a Machinist and a Machine Operator. He didnt know the difference!! so I explained that a Machinist can make the part from a blueprint without any help and A Machine operator can hit the start*****on and change pieces and still need help .BIG DIFFERENCE

 

The problem is that the k-12 system says the only way to be successfull is to go to college. College isn't for everyone. I went to school and graduated with a B.S. (appropriate) in Business Mgt. Had I known then what I know now, I would have gone the technical/fabrication route and been much happier. We as a group (mechanics/painters/welders/machinests/artists etc..) need to get out and promote the values of being skilled better. Kids don't realize that there is more to life than $$$. Sending kids to college without a goal just creates a bunch of 20yr olds who want $40/hr and a chair to sit in. If you love what you do it isn't work. When my kids are a little older I am going back to school so I can stop creating so much scrap.

 

Amen! About ten years ago, I took some basic programming classes to kind of build on my manual skills. You know, something else for the resume', "just in case". Anyway, I kept taking a class a semester, slowly learning stuff about CNC machines, programming, set-up, etc. When our CNC guy quit suddenly a few years ago, I became the new CNC guy, and I was thrilled. When there was a problem to be solved, a quickie part to be made or someone's**** to be saved, I became that guy. I take pride in the fact I'm efficient, produce top-quality parts and don't break tooling or waste material. I also maintain and repair the Haas VF-6 that I run, keeping it tuned to perfection and spotless at all times. I thought I was appreciated by management and found out differently a few weeks ago. I informed my boss I would be out of commission for about 6 weeks due to hernia surgery. He asked why it was so long, after all (his words) "all you do is push*****ons." He's an engineer and is totally clueless. I was so pissed I told him it may well be 8 weeks. It WILL be 8 weeks, I promise. Not only is my contribution unappreciated, but there is no encouragement to be back sooner, since I don't make a lot of money. Why would anyone want to be talked to like that after decades of loyalty to a company? Machinists don't make much and are treated like any other tool on the shelf who just do what they are told. So if anyone wants to know why good machinists are tough to come by, it may be because there is no real incentive to go through all the training to be one. I love it, and dream of doing it for myself, but doing it "for the man" is a quick road to frustration in this area,

 

I understand the differnces for sure. Also as a machine operator with my background I seldom needed any help in fixing what broke or adjusting what needed adjusting. I was shocked that the majority of the operators couldn't or wouldn't fix bigger things when they went down. I am the only operator at the former factory that took on the challange of tearing down and rebuilding and resurfacing the centerless die grinder base and have it back up and going in 4 days. Also one of the two press operators that had ever pulled out and repaired the air cushions in the presses. Most were scared to even loosen the bolts on the bulster plates and could not trobleshoot the problems with the dies when they started getting bad parts and would ofter change out and discard good tooling as a wholesale method of fixing the problem. Keep in mind that with all 5 presses running we ran about 60,000 parts per shift. Rod