A little history When the first rules for HA/GR were made, auto's were not prefered, "we would really like to see 3 pedals". After the first 3 cars showed up to race at Mokan. The Hornet, 261 auto The Rams, flathead std. Ozark mtn special, flathead std. This was in 2005. Bob Hindman told me later that year that "next year that car will have a standard ******". I think someone told Ryan that same thing, so he outlawed automatics. Well the Hornet has a narrow frame, too narrow for 3 pedals, so it did not happen. But now the Hornet is rejected. I think that everyone knows that one of the worst feelings for a human is to be rejected. Now for someplace to race we started in Tulsa, (auto's ok). And we have had good car counts at times. Oh by the way the Ozark Mt Special 2 years in a row only averaged about three feet at Mokan, broken three speeds. Roy Merrett went through several (5) standard ******s, and gave up on them. Roys car is the Rams original frame, they sold it to Shawn Mcdermot, and he added a slant and won at moken, then sold it to Roy Merrett. The Ozark Mtn Special ch***is was sold and went north, the motor went to the salt flats in a pickup and set a record. As I said earlier I don't think anyone cared about a 194 chevy. It was so small that it might not be a threat. So now a couple of years later it's "not ok". You know that some people like a model A with all of the "correct parts" and some like street rods. I think we can have fun with both. Joe Hamby
We all should ask ourselves what the "spirit of the bug" really means to ourselves? To some people it is a strict era in drag racing history, to others it means "cheap racing and fun" It can be a bit of both. I personally think the allowance of Automatic transmissions should be considered, both for economics and safety [ I am a huge manual transmission fan ] With safety unfortunately we can never go back to the 1950's , so design allowances have to be made.[ there is already a full-face helmet rule ] The last thing we want to see is drivers hobbling around in the pits [ doing the "Indy Shuffle" ] because of past racing incidents like clutch explosions Rule ammendments "after the fact" always cause m***ive escalations in costs. eg: a clutch explosion results in "only approved bellhousings" or a mandatory "steel flywheel" rule change. Try buying an off-t******lf ****tershield for a flathead 6 dodge or hudson. Suddenly a homemade $1500 total invested hobby race car has an extra $1500+ in the bellhousing,clutch and steel flywheel alone There will always be clutch explosions in this cl*** , regardless of safety equipment used because of the 6" bias-ply tire rule. I totally aggree with the the 6" bias-ply tire rule, it is the greatest leveler of budgets [ and horsepower ] there is. But unfortunately racers being racers will develop skills to get an advantage [ it's the nature of the beast ] Drivers are starting in 2nd gear and slipping the clutch to help the tires hook up , this method will gaurantee eventual clutch failures [ plus higher clutch maintenance ] A clutch explosion can be contained within a ****tershield, but we still need to repair them afterwards I would rather spend my time swapping war stories & ********tin' in the pits than frantically trying to patch a car for the next race [ imagine 6+ HA/GR's with clutch failure at the same meeting ] I think the request for Auto transmissions would be a reasonable solution to the problem [ and reasonably affordable ] Just prohibit the use of delay boxes, trans-brakes, and maybe even manual valve bodies. [ this would be easy to police by locking out the 1-2 position on the shifter ] The Auto guys would have a 100lb handicap anyway [ thats over 7% weight penalty on a 1400lb car ] The spirit of the bug should be "cheap,affordable racing" ! everybody should be socializing together during and after the racing. [ not licking their wounds ]
Let me preface my comments with a small disclaimer. I am in NO WAY attempting to change the Ha/Gr rules package. I am only stating my personal opinion, and everyone knows what they say about opinions..... First off, my background is in circle track racing. I've got about 34 active years of experience in that area. I've been an avid observer and fan of drag racing for even longer. Over the years, I've watched innovation replaced by "equalizing" rules in both forms of racing. In drag racing (non pro) it was the advent of the brackets, in oval racing it showed up in the form of endless additions to the rules, such as minimum weights, maximum left side and rear weight bias, spec tires, spec carbs, maximum engine displacements, minimum wheel bases....I could go on for DAYS. What I do know is this: In the Street Stock division, for example, in twenty years, we went from a diverse field of cars numbering in the mid thirties with a track record of 15.95 seconds, to a field of around 15 mostly Camaro's and Firebird's with a track record time nearly a FULL SECOND quicker. The whole cl*** is within about .5 second of one another, and spending THOUSANDS of dollars to gain that last tenth. The average street Stock costs TEN times what it did twenty years ago. All in the name of 'being equal and saving everyone money". No small wonder then, that when I see a liberal rules package like the Ha/Gr dragsters, I get all excited! In oval racing cl***es, the cheapest equalizer there is, is TIRES. In drag racing, it's gonna be TIRES too. If you can't get the power to the ground, m***ive power isn't the entire answer. The clutch launched aspect enhances the lack of traction even more. I get it. However, it seems as if there are lots of gearboxes being thrashed, clutches coming apart, etc. Yes, I know that a lot of guys are NOT breaking things either, but some are experiencing multiple failures, and it won't take long before these folks do one of two things....switch to autos, or simply quit for economic reasons. A shrinking base of available cars, or a cl*** divided, isn't a good thing. I understand that auto transmissions will make cars somewhat easier to launch, and missed shifts would be a thing of the past, and both those things mean better traction and e.t.'s. But I wonder.....IF anyone ran an auto with a stock converter, and an open differential with the six inch bias tires, would that person have all that much advantage? And with the smaller displacement engines, the sticks would doubtless have an advantage, by robbing a lesser percentage of the engine's power. I don't know...I have no first hand experience here, so maybe I'm just blowing smoke out my wazoo, but it occures to me that there is a workable solution to all this. Obviously leaving things totaly alone is the easy way, and I can't sit here and tell anyone that the cl*** numbers will increase significantly if such changes were to be made. I'd say most likely not, because a relativly small amount of racers get the appeal of these cars anyway. What I DO know, however is this. There ARE durability problems for some, and from it's origonal rules and inception, the cl*** has become a house divided, and that is never a good thing. Also, when I hear the old "Spirit of the Bug" saying, all I can think about is throwing together whatever I can find on the cheap, whatever is laying around, and I can make it work. I understand the need for a bottom line of some kind, but it occures to me that every restrictive rule added to the mix, gets us further away from that "Spirit". I understand the need to stay away from the modern big inch engines, and I think the tire rule is a good one. I just think that everyone is a little too hung up over the transmission thing. Whatever the case, I'm building my car with a stick. As long as it hangs together, I know I'll have fun driving it. But if it ever grenades, especially if any pieces manage to hit me or some innocent bystander, I'll make the switch. I suppose I'll be on the outside looking in after that, but oh well. Again, just my opinion, and I realize they're just like as*holes....everyone has one, and they all stink.
Ain't gunna happen.........not here anyway. If you really want to see where it comes from you need to find the original Kevin Lee proposal....... In any case they are not our rules to change!!! You home yet?
Craig I'm back on wednesday night, after that please catch up with me. I'll need to get my *** busy,and round up all the bits I've got hoarded throughout the country [ it's a Kiwi thing, for other readers to understand ]
What's wrong with the manual valve body? That puts the driver back in the game. Shift to soon and you are under the curve, too late and, oh well.
this AGAIN!!!???? MAN! some people just will NOT let it go! The HAMB drags is ONE event a year FOCUSED on a particular brand of vintage feel drag racing, as set forth by its owner and promoter, Ryan Cochran. The HA/GR concept and rules are for that ONE EVENT per year.......nothing else. build whatever the hell you want, run it wherever you want, auto, stick, inline, V-motor, old, new, altered, slingshot, dunebuggy.......WHATEVER why keep beating up on the rules or the intentions of a one-race-cl*** that has NOTHING to do with what YOU want to do?
So that makes'em "shiftless"? Well, looky here, nothing major broke so the shifter's finally moved up to the top of my "to do" list. By the way, Lee, well fought win.
HA/GR, as set forth for the HAMB drags?, Truthfully, what do you care? or the pseudo version that doesn't use vintage engines, vintage transmissions, or vintage ch***is' ? If you want to run an inliner gas altered, DO IT!!!! I'm sure the fans/racers in Tulsa dig your cl***, but call 'em what they are----a 300 Ford six, C4, and NHRA legal altered cage IS an inliner gas altered. Nothing even remotely "vintage dragster" about that. Intent or not, "spirit" notwithstanding, you can build a low- bucker if that's what you want, but just keeping it bucks down doesn't make it vintage.
Here's my HA/GR. It is NHRA legal. I couldn't run it anywhere around here if it wasn't legal. Is it in the spirit of the Bug? Nah, I don't think so. To me it looks like an Altered without a body, or a dragster with the axle in the wrong place. In my opinion, the slant six I have in it is too modern an engine to meet the "spirit". Except for the SDRA (Tulsa) iteration, the So. Cal contingent and the Australian version (ANDRA), I think HA/GR is a dead duck. Mine will be getting a narrow rear end, narrow slicks, (it already recieved an automatic trans) and the rear end pushed up where it belongs. It didn't take the early dragster guys but a few years to move their ****s behind the axle. So, I'll have an early style slingshot and it should be a ball to run. Just like Roesville Carl's excellent machine.
You could even keep the rear end full width when you move it. There was a whole era of wide rear slingshots as well.
Hey sled, the 12 race season in Tulsa, is over for this year, all of the cars used HA/GR legal motors. I guess that I missed that part about period correct ******'s, that has been tried and they break, and not required in the rules. If you want an old frame that needs to be modified anyway, go for it. If you do build and race one, then it will make you smile, I think we all need that. My little "Mopar" slant was raced with a standard ****** and went 12.25 and went 111 mph. Can you match that? Joe
no, I can't match that, not yet. my HA/GR went on hold a bit more than a year ago for economic reasons, and remains there currently. I've been back to work now since July, but it's a long road to financial recovery for me before ANY of my projects get any attention. My build IS: TT rails, banjo rear, V8-60 front axle, VL wires, Mopar flathead six, and Lasalle trans (and yes, I have spares) I hope to R&D my way into the 12's someday, while holding fast to the vintage parts roster.
You both sum it up pretty well. The horse is still dead, no matter how violently ya flog it and still folks bring out the whips and try their best to get it moving. As has been mentioned more times than needed...there are plenty of options for alternate builds to whatever style and combination desired by the builders out there and the "HA/GR Cl***" really will never be anything but a small, obscure gathering of like minded individuals who are living in the past. Why keep trying to change it? If you want to build with an automatic (or for that matter a Lenco) go for it...if you desire a late model engine, use it, 12" slicks, fine. There are plenty of ways a person can build and race a dedicated dragster and far be it from those of us who are living in the past to try and prevent the builders from making the car of their choice. At the same time, if the concept of an old style, manual transmission relic that will never be accepted by the N(o)H(ot)R(ods)A(llowed) doesn't fill your needs and desires. Build something that does and let our horse die the peaceful death that all of the "change the rules folks" predict if the rules remain vague and at the same time "written in stone". As Four Banger has so well illustrated, every time organizations try and achieve "parity" in cl***es, through adding rules and requiring "spec parts, tires, carburetors" or whatever, the costs go up, people find ways around the rules (there are always loopholes) and the end result is increased cost and the demise of a good idea. Let those who desire to build to the rules as they are, do so...let them have their fun and live their dreams. If you fit into the group of "if I could change this rule I would build one" fine. Start building what you want, (seems like they seldom do). There are plenty of ways to build a car and plenty of places to race it. Have fun with your dreams, but don't ***** if we don't all agree with how to live the dream. RIP Horse, you are still alive to those who believe!
RIP Horse, are you still alive to those who believe? Yes, I think so...and if not, I'm gonna flog it till it IS! LOL! And by the way "A small group of like minded idividuals living in the past" doesn't sound too bad to me. I think we all see where like minded, media driven, high dollar organizations have taken us in the PRESENT. I have sat in on a great many rules brain storming meetings in my time, and the one thing that comes up EVERY time, is the old "If you change this rule, we will build cars". I've heard it many times, and just as many times never saw the new cars. Never in all my days have I seen a rules package that I liked, or agreed with 100 percent. You always have to weigh the good and the bad against your desire to participate. If you're not certain you want to be a part of something, it is doubtfull that one or two rules will realisticly change your mind. Been there, seen it. As I've said before (ad nauseum) if I were to change anything in the HA/GR rules, it would only be a solid clarification of the term "Pre 62". I doesn't matter which way it goes, just make it clear. And I say this only from the point of view of a guy who's had not one, but TWO circle burners outlawed in this fashion. When a rule says I CAN, and then I DO....please don't come back and say "well, that's not the INTENT of that rule" I don't care, because I saw what the rule actually SAID, and followed it. I've seen too many hard feelings because of this, so why let it happen if it can be prevented? Please don't call me a "scammer" if you left the door open. I prefer the term "brilliant", myself! As long as the California group are still running brackets, small differences will not matter. Once a reliably solid core group of say 8-10 legal cars exists, and they race heads up, then the rules need to be followed to the letter. My only advice is this...if you leave big loop holes, please do not begrudge the guy who uses them. Oh, and by the way, I don't see the HA/GR's fading peacfully into obscurity at all....rather I see a pretty bright future for this cl***. The numbers may not be huge, but I certainly see a solid future for folks who like doing things the old way, and keep their racing simple and affordable. Again, just my two cents....and worth every penney! Alan
How many of those "modern" engines showed up at Tulsa this year for the SDRA season? 292 chevy and 300 Fords?
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