dont know if these will work or not, but im going to try them myself. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/as...q.0/cont.1/intPgNo.1/redirect./qx/product.htm trey
Something for you to check. I havent read all the posts so forgive me if you told or its been brought up but what kind of brake kit is on the car. If its an after market disk kit check the wheel bearings. I fought a 30 model a for a long time and the end result was the castel (spelling) nuts were too wide of a span betwen the notches and when you backed em off enuff to get the cotter pins in the bearings were way too loose. On that car I actually redrilled the spindles after setting the bearings up properly and no more problems. On my 32 I made shims to go between the washer and the back of the bearing. If I remember right if you have any king pin shims laying around they will work also. Anyway thats what I found and did and the problem went away. I did also add a dampner but it was still there some what till i fixed the bearings. Dave
Answer to your post. Nothing against but center steering boxes have to be carefully checked when used in street application. May race car steering boxes have been crashed and due to twisted sectors, correct adjustment varies during operation and can produce "flatspots" that causes the tolerances to loosesn or tighten up during operation. This variation in play transfers to the tires and is the cause of strange steering problems. In addition with center steering boxes it is especially important to understand the steering ratio as well as the pitman arm and steering arm lenghts. Since most boxes are for quick steer race car with 1 turn lock ratios, they are impractical for road driving. It is possible to install them when recomputing the steering arm ratios to bring them closer to a 3+/- lock ratio, more practical for road driving. While these boxes look neat for toolin' hotel parking lots, on the hiway at speed require constant attention. Sort of like driving a 150 Mph go- kart. Your post indicates that you also have a harmonic problem, but at higher speed , usually this indicates that this problem is probably related more to a balance problem and even if the tires are balanced, the brake drum is possibly the culprit, or you have a set of redrilled hubs not quite true. To check use same procedure but borrow a set of wheels and tires and try them at the same speeds to see if the problem still exists. If it does not go away, you should have the hubs/drums balanced. Harmonics are hard to chase down but is more of a balance problem than a loose or out of alignment part. In regard to toe in/ toe out, yes every time you change the size of the tire on the front wheels you should check the toe. However you will not notice a large change unless you significantly increase or decrease the tire diameter. In regard to the loose king pin this is common with hand dropped axles. With dropped axles it is also important to insure that the king pin inclination is at the same angle from side to side and the the drop is equal from side to side, as these inconsistencies will also cause a spooky handling ride. Hope this is some help. Dick
Sorry to hijack this thread a little, but totally out of curiosity, I thought the name sounded familiar, Is this you http://www.dickspadaro.com/ DICK SPADARO?
I have read an older magazine tech article where they fixed this by heating the axle around the kingpin hole and hammering it round again.
Dick..Grimlock is another guy having the harmonic problems. My car only has the problem at low speeds. With the low speed problems I'm having I can't believe how nice this car is at speeds. My center or cowl steering is actually a 39 Chevy truck steering box with an extended shaft to make it work as center steer. My box is 4 turns lock to lock. I'm hoping the axle is the problem. I tightened the king pin bolt more and it took most of the slop out. I know it's only a temporary fix but I'll see if it gets rid of the wobbles. Dave ..I've got 40 brakes and all is well there. Clark
Brush ...he'll be a good source of info! Now if I could only beat him to the good stuff at the swapmeets Clark
Yeah, for some reason I can't save changes when I give someone a new title. If I could Dick's "FNG" status would already be gone.
Had a very similar problem on an old pickup I had. Had to step up to a set of good gas shocks (Bilsteins) and get the tires re-balanced. I probably should of had them shaved, too. But the shocks and the new balance job seemed to do the trick. This thing was so bad that it actually bent the drag link because it was hopping around so bad!
I have to agree with jusjunk as to one of the problems that can cause the Death wobble. I had the same problem when I installed f-100 brakes on my 40 coupe. Once I got the bearings to seat correctly, the slow speed shimmy went away. Everything else was brand new and dialed in. I just find it rather novice that all these so called pro shops want to sell you a steering damper to cure a much more complex problem. And Dick Spadaro knows his shit.....been around longer than most of us greybeards. But Dick, when you angle back on the axle....the withbone drops at the ball mount. So you gotta either make a lowered mount, or pie cut the bones. If they are split to the rails.you can add to the length of the frame bracket where the rod end mounts (can't go too long ya know.) or you still have to pie cut the bones or switch to 4 bar. (not me!) I'm referring to the 10 degree layback here, not just a small amout of caster over stock. Clark, The king pins and bushings for 50's f-100 trucks are a tad larger then what you have now, and may be worth looking into if your axle is not worn pass this size. but there is an oversize for the f-100 axle also. No doubt you need too tighten up those kingpins, but I still believe you have other issues to address. Like pitman arm length and caster issues could still be a bite. Its a bitch ain't it. Too bad its not textbook. I can't wait to get my Deuce on the road and see what steering gremlins bite me in the ass. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- opossum benders central mo chapter
Clark, Sorry I missed you last weekend. If you have the right size ream, go ahead and heat the end of the axle and hit it a few times with a mallot, then ream the hole back out. Just don't get carried away. You don't want to change any of the axles geometry. I wonder when Dick will give us the secret code for the HAMBERS discount?
If your axle hole is too big where the king pin fits it will be a problem. I had the same thing on a 32 wide beam I had dropped. Don't give up on your axle! The guy Adam, in Arizona who drops the old axles can fix this. He did it on mine. Very nice guy, easy to deal with. It does mean taking the axle out and sending it to him, cost me $20 to ship. But at least the axle is not wasted. I am at work so I don't have Adams contact info, but I think some one on here in the hambodex has it or send me a pm. Trey, the bushings for the kingpins go in the spindles, not the axle. Which sounds like his problem. I tried to find over sized king pins, but the only ones I could find were for trucks 48-52, same diameter but the length is not the same as the car. So unless you are running F-1 spindles, won't work. I think the fix does involve heating the axle up. And I have heard of guys taking a punch and peaning the inside of the king pin hole, but that is not much surface area. And I in no way recomend doing it, just one thing I heard and breifly considered. I feel for you man, I put my car together before I noticed the king pin slop. But I swapped axles with another I had. I had to make a new tie rod since the width and drop was different, and I had to rebend the steering arm. But hell this is hot rodding right, be glad this shit is so easy to change. Good Luck, that is a great looking car.
You should be good to go, picture makes answers easier, still think that you have a little too much caster. This can be addressed with a zip wheel and a welder about 3" back from the axle fork. Lowering the cross member and realigning the radius rod below frame level has dialed in too much caster at that mounting point . This mounting point is fine with hairpins because you can adjust it back out. Some may suggest that you just bow the radius rod up but if you cut a 1/8" kerf from the bottom 1/2 to 3/4 up that probably will be enough to fix the caster as well as take some of the spring bind out of the front spring and improve the ride also. Dick
Caster is measured at the kingpin or axle kingpin boss. If the tops of the kingpins are toward the rear of the car farther than the bottom of the kingpins - as they are supposed to be - installing a taller/larger tire will increase caster. The taller the tire the more tilt back to the front axle there is. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To add a bit of confusion to the mix, front end shop alignment guys with a lot of Ford solid axle experience will change toe-in to toe-out. 1/16" - 1/8" toe-out is the norm. Usually done to load worn steering components in a different direction and take play out of the system. Considered a temporary fix, but it works from everything I've heard. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I don't run a damper on my 32 w/dropped axle, but I do run a front panhard. Vega cross-steering fwiw. No problems. The panhard takes the chassis swinging from side to side on the shackles bit out of the picture. Where the improvement usually comes from is on turn entry. When entering a turn centrifugal force will pull the chassis to the side which inputs a steering component into the front end. Even though you're holding the steering wheel steady you'll get an undesired steering input because the chassis/steering linkage relationship has changed. In extreme cases you'll find yourself sawing at the wheel to maintain the same arc of turn. Granted, not your problem, but imho you need a panhard and as has been said, dampers are just a band-aid. And I still think you have too much caster, but I will point out that old manuals call for 6-9 degrees caster on solid axle fat fender Fords. Getting the caster back to a more reasonable angle will lessen the forces required for a particular steering input. In other words, easier steering....
How Is The Drag Link From The Box To The Spindle....(side Steer ....cross Steer....???) My Tub Had A Terrible Shake When You Would Hit A Bump......lets Just Call It Bumpsteer......(bad Enough ....we Were Going Thru Louisville (south Central) At The Nats.....hit A Small Pot Hole....and Knocked The Bottom Radiator Hose Off......) My Buddy Had Changed Bolt On Arm On The Spindle ....(cause It Looked Better Than My Setup) And The Drag Link Went Down Hill ....when The Drag Link Was My Way It Was Level.....and It Worked......but Looked Like Hell....ha Its Going To Be Changed To Cross Steer Next Month ....possibly For A Louisville Resurrection......stay Tuned For Details.....brandon
If you have access to a mill, the bare axle can be set up in it and the kingpin bore, bored out. A steel bushing is pressed in and the bushing is bored/reamed to size. A new set of kingpins (fit to your spindles) if necessary and you're back in business.
Concentrate on the kingpin issue. I've seen many times the same problem on beam axle big trucks, with worn KP bushings. If the tire unloads (rebounds) from any bump in the road, the harmonics of the tire is disrupted and the tire will oscillate so hard the wheel will come out of your hands. The clearance cannot control the lateral movement of the tire, particularly one that is laterally out of balance. It also tends to pound out the KP bore (and bushings) more, just aggravating the problem. You do have tight KP bushings, don't you? C9 is correct. The axle KP boss can be bored with an end mill to some nominal standard oversize and a mild steel sleeve pressed in and honed to the correct KP bore. Just make sure that the top of the boss is set up perpendicular on both axis' to the mill's vertical travel so the KPI stays the same. Don't forget to notch the sleeve for the tapered lock. Moog used to make oversize KP's for early Fords, but you will need to mic the distorted bore to see if it could simply be bored to that oversize.
Hey Clark,10deg caster is a nice functional #,not a problem.For caster to create wobbles you usually have to go in excess of 15deg. with a 26"tire.The problem is more than likely as you said earlier that loose kingpin or other part.If that is not it it is probably like the other guy said when the caster and or camber is not the same from side to side it can create the symptom you describe.A steering damper will mask a lot of ills kind of like white paint(lol) but once everything is dialed in and working well the damper is a nice accessory to a fully functional front end. Good luck and happy motoring. car by the way,T.OUT
When weve dropped some of the axles weve noticed that the kingpins are sometimes sloppy before we even drop them, if they are we fix them ahead of time, we check them after we remove them from the jig too, just to be safe, but we miss some every once in a while. we fix them by having the kingpin in the axle with the locking bolt in the axle to, then we heat till red (dont ask how we know when it good) but not to hot, then we beat (bad way of sayng it) the end of the axle till it is tight to the kingpin, then we let it cool, the pin will slide out, then we make sure the top and bottom are still square to the kingpin bore. I had this problem with my original 32 heavy mor drop in my 34 p/u and had to do the same fix, worked like a charm.
Lots of great info here. Thanks evrybody!! Sorry if I sounded a little fustrated but I've never had this much problems with a car. I went through the whole front end, repacked the bearings, replaced the only tie rod end that wasn't new and tightened the pin in the king pin. I'll take her for a ride in the morning and see what she does. I'm not sure how I'll fix the axle permanently but hopefully this will work for now. It's driving me nuts not to drive the car. Clark
Clark stopped back to see if you were able to isolate your front end problem. Since so many people are reading this lets clear some things up. Caster is based on the verticle center line of the wheel. Has no bearing on the size of the tire. 5* is 5* no matter if you have a 14" tire or an 18" The only thing that was changed was the tire height. Now because most cars run big and littles it is assumed that changing the front or rear tire size drastically changes the caster, false assumption. Unless you went to cartoon size tires mini front, monster truck rear, any caster change would be minimal over the wheelbase of the car but in any case it would take out caster measurement mabey only a degree. As for swedging the kinpin bosses, I am guilty of that however I have found that in most cases, rather than making them smaller all that has been done is change the position of the oval hole. Since your front end is new, has new spindle bushings and the king pin does not turn anyway, simply driving in the king pin lock until it is tight should be sufficient to remove any wooble. If your axle boss is so worn or distorted that the king pin inclination is oblonged, that baby had a hard life and may be questionable for use anyway. I do not think that is your problem. Most install king pin locks and nuts with a socket until it is tight and say ok, well that is not tight, the lock must be driven in with a hammer blow and then the nut tightened up. This will eliminate any king pin boss movement and should be rechecked after a drive to insure that it remains tight. If you just tighten up the nut to draw the pin in you will probably just strip the thread or the king pin lock will loosen after a short time. Now, toe out on a street car is not a good idea unless you are in the tire business. Toe out defeats the ackerman principle and causes excessive tire scuff going straight as well as turning. Minimal toe in puts just enough pressure on the tie rod ends to take up any play and produces an almost neutral track when under load. The loose wheel bearing deals, I'm not even going there. Well good luck, there isn't a half days work to make this a driver. Dick
This has been some really good info, thanks to everyone, and especially Dick for passing along all the knowledge. I'm sure to use it when I drop my axles later this year. ps, Grimlock, adding to Dick's post count should address the fng issue.
Clark, one of the guy's in our club has a 34 5 window that has had the same problem..In fact it was the one that was at the showdown last year. I'd be following him at lower speeds, he'd hit a bump and i could actually see his front wheels whip back and forth violently.. I've even been with him when it's happened..scary feeling. He too had to come to a complete stop in order for it to go away. He's tried a damper, and it didn't solve it. He's changed the box and even that didn't solve it. Our friend Oz who was at the showdown last year know's these thing's well, and even he started going over thing's with him to find the problem..last i knew they hadn't found it yet. I'll be paying attention to this so maybe i can pass along some info. Good luck. Tony
Well I took the car for a ride this morning. It was a 100 percent better. I live on a rural PA road. Most dirt roads are better than the road I live on. Before I couldn't make it a 100 feet without it wobbling. I made it down the road without any problems. On the way back I tried to see if I could go faster. It started to wobble once after hitting areally bad bump, but not the death wobble like before. I think it will be OK now. Thanks to everyone!! Clark PS ...I'm still out for Columbus but Bville is not too far off.
So Clark, what did you do that improved things? Did I miss a post? Dennis PS For those that don't know it, Dickie owns/runs a roundy round car for entertainment when he's tired from selling old car parts.
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