The door skin on my truck goes in(low) length ways when I put a straight edge down the length of the door. About a 1/4 inch in the middle of the straight edge. My other door is perfectly straight. The metal is kind of "floppy" as well, oil canned I guess you would say. Are there any tricks to get the metal to come back to position? Its a really nice door otherwise so Id really like to fix it. Sorry I dont have a way to get pics. Thanks, Brandon
That 64-66 truck? Did the front or back edge of the door get hit? Like if the door was part open and then backed into a wall? If either edge was pushed, the skin behaves like it is stretched, but it's really the framework is too narrow. Body guys clamp the edge and use a puller jig. But if someone welded a new door lower rot repair panel, that could be the problem instead.
I installed the lower patch panel on my 65 c-10 door and it ended up just like you are describing. Check out my build thread and look for " the stuff". I believe if you drill a row of holes about an inch apart, you could then push out the door with " the stuff" and spot weld the skin to the stuff. There is room inside the door for it, your window will still fit. I am basically saying to add a " stiffener" to the inside of the door, from the front edge to the back. This may not be the best solution, you decide........http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=656966
Your sheetmetal is streched - that's why it's oil canning. If you welded in a patch, the metal distorted and grew. The old school way to fix this is to heat the sheetmetal with a rosebud or turbo torch, then wipe it with a wet rag. The sudden cooling will cause it too shrink back. The new school way works on the same principle, but uses a flat stainless steel disk on your grinder to generate friction. You get a lot more control over the heated area. There are some really good videos on Youtube about stainless disk shrinking. Here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8cruauERmI&feature=fvsr I haven't tried it myself yet, but I'm interested enough to have looked into it. You can buy one from the guy in the video (Wolfes Metalfab), TinManTech.com, or there's a guy out of Mass. that sells them on eBay.
Hey, This door has probably been worked, and may contain some filler and marginal metal work. Thats a pretty low crowned (soft) panel, and they can get floopy if not straightened properly You could try removal of the access panel and see if you can bump any of the door skin out, but the '59 GMC I'm working has very poor access to the centre of the door skin from behind- maybe the '64-'66 doors are easier? " Humpty Dumpty was pushed "
There was a lower patch I welded in. Im sure thats the problem, I should have checked the door more thoroughly before I did that be cause Im not sure how straight it was to begin with. Id like to find out how to fix it the correct way and Im sure there is a way to get it back pretty close.
Yea there isnt much access to the inside but there is a little. Im not sure if I could bump it out very well without just putting small dents in the door.
Oil can can be seen in both shrinking (from welding) and stretching (body damage). If it is a loose oil can where the panel easily flops back and forth, then more than likely the panel has shrunk from someone welding in a patch panel and the resulting shrinking. If it is an oil can that pops around to different locations as you try to push on a high spot, (or low spot, if pushing from the rear side) then this would be more than likely be the result of body damage and a stretched panel. Need to find out first what caused the damage so you can pick the correct method of repair. If it's damaged from welding, the only possible scenario is that the panel has shrunk, plain and simple. A shrinking disc or torch would be the last thing you want in that case. So figure out first what kind of oil can you have... ***Edit*** looks like I'm slow at typing... welding = shrinking, you'll need to stretch out the weld and HAZ to restore the crown.
Hey, Just my WAG, but the welding heat from your parch probably shrunk the door skin The welds will probably have to be stretched to releave the tension from the skin, that's causing the low area in the skin
MP&C its definately a loose oil can that flops back and forth easily and consistently. I am pretty sure I caused it when welding.
Just to show you what happened, Here is a thread I did on welding and shrinking, this may give some insight......
To clarify, even though your weld may have been horizontal across the bottom of the door, the shrinking effect will pull the unaffected areas toward the weld/HAZ as the shrinking occurs (picture below, green arrows), resulting in an instance loss of crown and loose oil can. By planishing out the welds as you go, you can keep up on the issue before it gets too far out of hand.
That pretty much sums up the situation right there. Great tutorial! My main issue now is access to the inside
Good luck on the fix. I would be very interested in your result, as my door did the exact same thing as yours. My last advice would be to simulate the pressure of washing/waxing that spot to make sure it doesn't cave in.
If you use the heat and shrink repair method, it doesn't necessarily require access from behind the door. If you over work the metal with a hammer and dolly, you will end up using bondo or lead - the over streched material has to go somewhere like as shown in MP&C's helpful pictures, and will form valleys. Good luck!
Rhinodaddy, please go back and read my posts again. Any welding operation, and the heat from it, causes shrinking, period. He needs to stretch, or planish out the weld. The only time he may need to shrink that door is if he stretches it out too much, but shrinking it at this point will do nothing but make the valley deeper... The valley you refer to is formed as the crown of a panel shrinks, or looking at the pictures above, an arc moves more closely toward resembling a straight line. Ever notice how the valley always goes inward on an outward crowned panel when exposed to the heat from welding? Shortest distance between two points is a straight line, so when any crown loses some of it's arc and flattens out, well, that's shrinking.
Level it out with filler. Don't listen to the boobs who think filler is the work of the devil. If applied correctly it will fix the problem perfectly and last the life of the truck. You can go ahead and try to shrink the metal but you will end up filling it anyway. Pushing or hammering is futile. If you absolutely refuse to use filler the only option is a new door or at least, door skin.
I'm very interested in the results, as I had the same thing happen. I'm sure MP&C is good at what he does, but can the "average joe" do this the first time, without practice, in his limited garage, etc. etc. etc? The smaller the radius of the curve (ie:the top of a fender) compared to the door in question (size of a iowa corn field, and almost as flat) seems to require skills that just don't materialize overnight. I wish I had those skills, but I don't. I used Bondo to fix my door, and like Rusty O'Toole says, it will most likely last a long time. My truck had previously been "restored" in 1985, and the bondo they used then was adheared as good as the day it was applied / 20+ years prior. I did always regret having that much bondo in that door (1/4 thick in the middle) and thought it might fall off at a car show when everybody was watching, but it never did. I then thought about the stiffener inside the door (years after I fixed it / like my tailpan on my current build thread) and that there was plenty of room inside the door for it. It would have still required some bondo, but not nearly as much. I'd be more than happy to describe in great detail how I would go about the stiffener, but I do want you to try MP&C's method first(and I hope it works). My experience tells me that you just want this done, so you can move on to the next issue. This also seems to me to be one of those "this way is the best way" type of situations, kind of like "should I use distilled water in my radiator" which the answer is yes, (but you don't need to, most people don't and don't have any issues). Besides all this rambling, you're working on a TRUCK.
Therein lies the problem. You don't just level out a floppy, loose oil canned panel with bondo and expect it to last. It will be prone to failure/delamination/cracking as the panel is unstable. The main purpose in stretching out the weld and HAZ is to get the crown back at least close to where it was, so the panel is stable and not flopping. I don't think anyone suggested Brandon not use any filler at all, but I don't see how you can think just leveling it out with bondo will "last the life of the truck". Once someone has the panel stable, and not flopping, sure, a quality filler is appropriate to take care of any minor defects. But the paint job is only as good as the substrate, and given the cost of materials nowadays, I'd be looking for a better starting point than a floppy panel.
Well, I must be a boob, I like that I can tell you, the mud over your troubles doesn't answer your metal problems well. The '59 GMC I'm working has been treated to such butchery, and as a result, doesn't have a panel that you could call paintable Every panel I've hit with the grinder has highs, lows, and on the average is over 1/2'' thick The owner wants to put a real paint job on this, and I've told him, I'd feel like a whore in church painting over any of this! The bleu urethane he's chosen is over $700 a gallon! The only long term answer to over shrunk or over stretched metal is a controled stretch (planish) or a shrink (torch or disc). Thick filler in a door panel is a fool's game. If necessary, cut an access panel in the bottom of the door , which probably needs patching anyway, planish or shrink the outer skin as necessary, and fill with a slime coat of a preminum filler. Weld up the access hole you cut, fill as necessary and finish. " Humpty Dumpty was pushed "
Pimpin, add me to your boob club too... To start, I'm an average Joe myself, and there are plenty of average Joe's that have used "The key to Metal Bumping" and other resources to improve their methods, not wanting to settle for a repair such as Rusty describes. And yes, there are many levels of finish, from the bondo covered rust holes with screen stuffed inside, to a fully metal finished panel without filler, and anything in between. I will be up front and say that I'm not quite at that metal finished stage myself, I still need some high build and/or glazing compound in most cases to level out any repairs, and there are many, many out there that put my work to shame.. But if anyone is happy with just leveling out a panel with nothing but filler, I'd go out on a limb and say that their methods will never improve if they're satisfied with that type of finish level. You have to start somewhere in any attempt to improve your methods. I'm well aware that my recommendations may be out of someone's comfort level (otherwise, why are they here asking advise?), and that time and practice may be needed to improve one's skills so any repairs don't include an unneccesary overuse of filler. I also try to go the extra mile in explaining what is happening in the situation at hand so the person in question will better understand how to effect the repair, whether I've used pictures, diagrams, whatever. But given the cost of paint materials these days, I typically don't make recommendations to anyone for half assing the work where the paint job is destined for failure. In the end, it's not my truck, and Brandon can fix it as he wishes. And I can sleep well knowing I didn't steer him wrong..
I totally agree, and enjoy the conversation we are having, even though Brandon seems to have gone back in the garage! Check out my drawing though, this is where reality and theory don't add up. If the welding / heat has shrunk this metal and pulled it in (shortest distance between 2 points, etc....). Then how come it can go beyond the original shape to a larger radius, when it oil cans out? The leading and trailing edge of the panel are essentially fixed. I know it goes beyond, mine did, and I'm sure his does too. This is where the shrink / stretch becomes gray. It would seem to need to be shrunk when it is oil canned out, but stretched when it is oil canned in. My method just says, fuck that shit, force it to stay where you want it to( and don't use a 1/4 inch of filler). Please don't take offense to my method, as I respect your drive to perfection.
Hey Mac, I don't know 'bout the '' average Joe '' assertion, but you again, make some very valid points! If a guy/gal doesn't reach, he'll never grasp. The overuse of filler and hi-build to attempt to solve damaged metal problems is a growing one. It's alot like ''rebuilding an engine using old/used parts. Sure the engine may start, and run, but for how long, and how well? Your use of pictures and recommendations for repair problems make it so even a guy like me who isn't the brightest bulb in the fixture, can understand whats going on. Thick wads of putty and hi-build arn't metalwork.................there, I said it ! " Meanwhyle, back aboard The Tainted Pork "
Not having any pictures to show what you've got there, the only thing I can do is show you some more theory, and hope it fits what you have. Hopefully this will also help Brandon in reading his repair. The other pictures I showed may have been a bit confusing as they only show the shrinking in one direction, when actually it will occur in multiple directions. First, looking at welding a lower door skin on, you'll have shrinkage throughout the area of the weld (red line in picture) and the HAZ (heat affected zone) on either side of the weld. As the resulting shrinking occurs, the door skin will lose some of the crown and flatten out (green arrows) as well as the length shortens (blue arrows). As a result of the weld and HAZ shrinking horizontally (blue arrows), and the adjacent area above and below having a tendancy to resist this movement, the area in between will start to buckle, or cause a wave effect (yellow lines). To visualize this effect, lay a piece of paper flat on a table and using your index fingers, push two corners of the paper toward each other. This simulates the shrinking caused by the weld. You'll notice the paper creates a wave or buckle as you push the corners together. This simulates the buckles in the area surrounding the HAZ. I'm guessing that these buckles may be what you're seeing as a stretch, or high. Actually its not stretched at all, but the unaffected panel being manipulated by the adjacent shrinking. Next, if you are just welding a patch into the corner of a door skin, you'll have a compounding effect in the shrinking as the forces combine in the inside corner. The shrinking effects will normally occur in an equal amount on both sides of the weld and HAZ, but looking at the inside corner you should be able to see how these forces will "stack up". In addition, the linear shinking (blue arrows) will tend to have more of a "stacking" effect on the inner corner where you'll see a more pronounced buckle (normally outward) there as compared to the waves on outside of the corner (yellow lines) To address these repairs, planish the weld/HAZ to stretch both in a linear fashion (removing waves/buckles) and also restoring the crown. This repair will also very likely include some metal bumping (off dolly) to raise/lower highs and lows as the metal begins to relax. Hope this helps in reading the panel and some of the secondary effects (waves/buckles) of the shrinking that you'll see. Planishing the welds as you go will help to keep these effects in check, where it will be less likely you'll see all the waves and buckling. It's when you have all these forces/reactions combined (from not planishing) that some may have a harder time reading the panel...
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