Piston Ring Installations (Wet or Dry??)

Always wet!

 

Yup. I work at an engine assembly plant and we have a machine to oil the bores. The operators then oil the pistons prior to installation.

 

Here is a very interesting discussion recently posted right here on HAMB a week or so back about a new motor that had dry cylinders;

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=669633&highlight=fire+in+the+hole

Now, for what it's worth, all my instructors always told me to assemble using motor oil like will be used once in service only, and sparingly around the ring lands so none will be left to get trapped and coke up into carbon once hot and running.

The way I do it......... Tom S.

 

When building an engine I believe oil or a good assembly lube is your friend and you really can't go wrong except if your not using it.

 

#28;
CutawayAl
<hr style="color:#e5e5e5; background-color:#e5e5e5" size="1"> Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by jbrittonjr
My pop liked to use STP motor treatment. STP is like a very viscous oil.
I prefer to use plenty of 10w30 oil.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Although STP was marketed otherwise, motor oil is a better lubricant than STP.

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Believe it or not Al, my great uncle who was an old school mechanic even to blacksmiths, was marketed so hard in the late 60's to believe this, he actually used to heat this stuff on the stove top so he could pour it in automatic transmissions!
I never saw one torn down after this, but I used to cringe and tried for years without luck to get him to stop.

I know engines with only one pint of this stuff could not have it cleaned and removed by Oakite in a hot tank once torn down for rebuild. 1 pint permanently penetrated every pore of cast iron and even steel it was exposed to, and could not be removed.
Tom S. in Tn.

 

I'm curious too. He offered no explanation or theories. He just said engines made more power his way. Burned oil deposits could be a reason, but tit seems believe any excess oil that hasn't already drained away will be warmed and dissipated before it has a chance to produce carbon deposits. It doesn't take much oil to lubricate, so maybe it's a case where more isn't better? In spite of his advice I still oil the rings pretty well, I just don't saturate them like I used to.

 

Depositing a waxy coating to the inside of the engine is the one thing STP was good for.

 

I was always told that in the upper compression ring lands where no drain back holes are present, oil trapped there would cook under the intense heat in that area, coke up and eventually create hard carbon that would affect rings ability to expand and contract, and function effectively by sticking.

The other side of the equation is, iron against iron will not effectively create a pneumatic seal sufficient to build suitable compression, so oil has to be present to seal micro pores and imperfections between the 2 surfaces.
I found the story from HAMB member Tommy and his Ford quite informative with regard to this topic.

Question for the advanced class: Anyone ever try to start or do a leak down test on a race motor with 'gas ported' pistons that has been sitting in storage for an extended period?
Tom S. in Tn.

 

I'm a dunker. I always used Valvoline racing oil in engines and the build, thoroughly dunking the pistons for several minutes. It's a messy install but the oil is ashless. Most of it runs out of the cylinder when the engine is upside down to torque the rods and install the pan. I pour oil in the pistons just before installing the pan.

I don't leave oil on top of the pistons when installing the heads unless
I know the engine will sit for a few weeks before being started.
If I start an engine on a stand and it won't be installed for a while, I use a fogger when I shut it down.

 

I can't think fo a single moving piece in an engine that's going to suffer from a little extra oil on startup. Just oil is probably fine if the engine is being started soon after assembly. If it's going to sit for a spell before startup I'd assemble it with a 50/50 mix of oil and STP or oil and GM E.O.S. assembly lube. If it's got a new flat tappet cam and lifters, give them an extra coating of E.O.S. or something similar with some zinc.

Assembling things with just STP or E.O.S. doesn't sound like a good idea to me either. Good call on making sure the wrist pins are lubed too.

 

Ive always been told about moving parts. The best parts in the world wont last with out oil. .........yg

 

Last one I did I just used a can opener to open the oil can top and poured some oil out to accommodate the displacement -- oh crap I'm old - oil can ?!?

 

Ok here's a curvball Total seal recomends not using oil on new ring's .They have a powder that they sell that you coat the wall's with . We just use a little wd40 on the race motors never had a problem . For a street motor a little oil will never hurt but if it's a race motor with light tension rings too mutch oil can cause problems .

 

I've been told (by Sealed Power rep) that too much oil can "coke" and try to stick the rings. That was a long time ago though.
Larry T

Whoops. Already been posted, but I guess I'll leave it up.

 

#43;
" We just use a little wd40 on the race motors never had a problem ."

I was hinting toward this very thought with the gas port question I asked previously. I always saw nothing more than WD used on those pistons and rings, and always had to use it after sitting for extended periods to regain ring seal.

Any one still gas port pistons? Tom S.

 

I'm a firm believer in Total Seal rings, and gas porting pistons. On blown alky engines i normally see no measurable leakage after many passes. Just lube wrist pins and skirt. Solid roller cams, 60 or 70 wt. Kendall with Lucas added.

 

Gas porting is still very popular . Just about every Comp car uses them and many bracket racer's also . The big thing right now is very thin piston ring's . A friend of mine is building a new motor and it uses an .023 top ring !

 

I've built many Mercedes engines at work and I always use BG (bearings and gears distributed by Kenz & Leslie in Denver-also napa sells it) engine pre-lube. Most of the MB cylinder walls are ceramic and have a german personality so lube is essential! Be liberal- no one likes a dry F>(k! I also set the ring gaps180deg apart and line them up with the wrist pins. I read in an old factory maintenance bulletin that the theory is there is less potential movement at the wrist pin vs 90deg to it. BS or truth-dont know

 

I always set the rings 180 apart and lined them up with the wrist pins. It just seemed to be the right thing to do.

When I started building engines I was told to dunk the piston assembly in a can of oil. I was never impressed with the resulting mess.

Over the years I have used less and less oil on the rings on the theory that most of what dosen't drip off will be scraped off anyway.

So now I just shoot a little behind the ring and scoot the ring around to get the oil distributed evenly.

So far no worries.

 

Depends on how long it will sit. Longer the wait time, the more oil you should use. In the winter here our summer stuff sits for like 9 months. I use a little 2-stroke oil (maxima castor 927) through the plug hole on my race bike. It burns good and it doesnt seem to effect the super thin ring(yes singular).

Machinist I hang around mentioned not to use things like 10w30 because the base oil is too thin with polymer "strings" added that are not great burners. Something like a good non-synthetic 30 wt aviation oil is what was recomonded to me for break in with a zddp addative.

I am no expert. These are opinions of people that have been around a while.

 

Spent 25 years with a ring company. Or course you use oil during assembly.Bare metal to metal contact is a recipe for disaster!!!What do the rings run in during operation OIL.Have you ever heard of fuel wash look at the damage excess fuel causes it washes the cylinders oil properties away and the rings fail.How about dry starts.Have seen them all, carry on with oil during assembly and you will have success.If you choose not to lubricate don't send the rings in for a factory analyssis as you won't like the answer.
http://www.hastingsmfg.com/ServiceTips/engine_prelubrication.htm

My2¢

Tig

 

Of course the pins and walls and pistons should not be installed dry. Metal galling is the result and things go down hill form there. I was taught to dunk the pistons. Then I switched to lightly oiling the pistons and rings and heavy on the walls, Then came Moly rings. My dad had an auto parts store on Van Nuys Blvd and through that store I met Ed Pink and Keith Black. They were both trying different things on fuel engines as the problem of oil cooking into carbon behind the rings in the ring lands was causing real problems. The answer seemed to be ATF. Still provided start up protection (keep in mind that the engines were always pre primed before start up) but since ATF is mostly detergents it burns off quickly and completely without making carbon. Also found that moly rings seated faster and there were less fail to seat problems. So I switched to ATF and 30 years of building all sorts of engines never had a problem. Built two Bonneville engines the last two years and we used cast rings and had even complete compression before the first pass at El Mirage. Did the usual 20 minute break in proceedure and then cooled and ran for thirty minutes. Cooled and checked compression. Right on the money and even readings on all eight. Works for me but there are a hundred schools of thought on this one.
Dan

 

Get Rid Of This Spammer

 

Ditto,I agree with your opinion,thank you!If anyone is there a better idea, saying that out and share,tks!




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