Olds 394 flexplate to converter problem

Hello again!

After many hours in the garage, my engine is finaly rebuilt and seated in the car. This is where my next problem occured:

The engine turned fine in the engine stand, but when I mounted it to the transmission, it would not turn anymore.

I have turned the flexplate so the two vissible bolts from the torque converter line up with the holes in the flexplate, this would mean that the remaining (currently hidden up there) holes also line up?

Do I have to move the converter backwards towards the transmission?

I have mounted the engine and transmission togheter with the 4 bolts in the top of the transmission and the transmission is also mounted to the rear engine/transmission mount.

Look at the attachments for a picture.
The red circles shows the bolts for torque converter to flexplate mounting.
The blue arrow shows how I meant about moving the converter backwards.

Don't mind the ugly red plastic padding gasket

The transmission is a hydramatic and the car is a 1960 Oldsmobile.

Thanks again!

 

You mentioned that the engine spun freely on the stand, but did the hydro spin on its own before you bolted things together?

 

Good question.

Also is there a mid mount on your setup? You may try slipping a bottle jack under there and relieving some of the stress on the center in the coupled area.

I have done that on olds setups before until everything was ****oned up tight.

 

Couple questions on my part here. When and how did you place the studs through the flex plate? Did the ****** case make contact to the block without any load? At that time was there any space between the converter and the flex plate? Did you use the bolts to "Pull" the bell housing and Block together?
The Wizzard

 

Also, what year is the hydro?

And when you say it won't turn anymore, do you mean that it won't budge at all, or it will only turn a little before stopping? Does it seem like something's hitting and binding up?

 

Not sure if it applies to this Transmission, but was the Converter "seated" all the way into the Transmission before you bolted the Transmission to the Block ?

 

make certain that the converter is engaged with the two tangs on the transmission oil pump drive...if not, the converter sticks out about 1/2 inch too far....then when you tighten the trans to engine bolts, it will cause binding....back out the bolts and take out the two converter bolts and turn the converter while pushing it toward the trans....you can feel it engage the oil pump tangs...you might have to push a bit harder to make it engage....but give this a try...I just did mt TH350 four days ago....It engaged with a healthy"clunk"....yours in the photo looks like it needs to go back a bit.

 

I am not sure about the later hydros but the earlyier hydros like the slant pan the fluid coupling had to be dissembled to remove it from the transmission.

 

You are correct sir!!

Tony

 

Yes the hydro did spin when we lifted the engine out of the car.

The ****** case did make contact to the block without any load, the flex plate was very near the converter and we had to turn the engine to match the holes in the flex plate. We did not use the bolts to pull the bell housing and block, not what I remember.

It is a Jetaway hydramatic from 1960. It feels like its biding up, it will one turn a little bit and then back again when pressure is released.

The fluid coupling is seated inside the transmission behind the torus, right?
Can the problem be that the torus needs to be moved back towards the transmission?

Thanks again!

 

Sounds to me like the converter is not seated in the shaft to pump right. The converter should freely slide away from flywheel 3/8" to 1/2" when ingauged correctly.
The Wizzard

 

Sometimes you get a "double clunk" to properly seat a torque converter. I had seen someone bust an ear off a transmission case trying to draw it up to the engine.

Good lesson learned at an early age from someone else's mistake.

Bob

 

Did this problem get solved? If so, what was the cause?

 

The fluid coupling and the torus are the same thing. I just can never remember the name torus when I want to.

 

No, the problem still remains

We have tried to take the engine and transmission apart and reinstall it, but it didn't help. My friend was lying under the car while I controlled the engine lift, he noticed that the torus did spin just a little when it got contact with the engine. However, when we bolted it all together, it was stuck again.

The front of the car is on jack stands and I also installed new transmisson/rear engine mounts some weeks ago, can any of this cause the problem somehow?

Does oil level in the transmission mather?

Can it be that the flex plate to engine nuts not are correct tightened? (like if they make contact with the torus)

Is there any wrong way of installing the flexplate with the fly wheel? (attachment) As long as the dowels are in the correct place, it doesn't mather which dowel?

Thanks!

 

if it turns a little befor binding it sounds like a plate bolt is hitting part of the case. make sure there the right bolts and the bolts are put in from the correct side

 

Here is the link to my step by step procedure to remove torque convertor. Just did it AGAIN, yesterday to insure that I did not have a problem. Damaged my thrust bearing on a newly rebuilt 5k 394. (ouch!!$$) The flexplate MUST be installed so the T/C dowel pins align with appropriate notches. These Jetaway Hydros have a take apart T/C. And not the slide on type of later model 350's and 400's.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=562375

 

Curious, did you take the fluid coupling apart to replace the transmission front seal? If so, did the fluid coupling go back together correctly? Reasoning, is that if the coupling is ***embled incorrectly, the fluid coupling might get stuck when the torus is drawn toward the flexplate. If nothing was done on the front of the transmission then just ignore this post.

 

Thanks for your answers! Is it possible that the flex plate is aligned 180 degrees wrong? (wrong dowel on wrong place, see picture in attachments)

I can see that one of the dowels are lining up like on the picture, but maybe its the wrong one?

No, I have not done anything with the transmission.

 

I have got another idea:

Can it be because I bought new rear motor mounts but the front is the same old one?
Like if the transmission and engine don't get in correct line?

 

Is this the same crankshaft that came out of the original engine? Reasoning is that on another post regarding hydro to 394, one of the posters remarked that the 59 (and probably 60) Olds crankshaft is longer than the 61-64. You may want to check this out. Perhaps the crankshaft flange is back too far and putting pressure on the torus.

61-64 394's used the Roto hydro 10 (slim jim), and this might be where the crank difference is at. 59-60 used the 315 Jetaway. Check with Goatroper02 (Tony @ ross racing). He will have the answer about crank lengths.

 

The crankshaft is the same and has not been replaced

 

ok, I am going to start from the beginning. Why did you take the engine and transmission out of the car? Did the car run and transmission work properly before removing from car? If so, then I am running out of ideas, but if the transmission and engine were already stuck, then read on.

Reason is: it is possible that the torus was ***embled wrong and that is why the engine was removed? My reasoning is that you say the hydro turns when you don't have it bolted up to flexplate. You say you bolted up to the engine with no issues and the hydro was still ok, but when you tighten up the flex plate to torus bolts the engine and transmission is stuck. My guess is that when you pull the torus up to the flexplate that something internal to the torus binds up.

Please fill us in on the ****ysis that I have mentioned to see if it has any possibilities.

 

I took the engine out of the car because the engine stalled and got seized, I only got about 100 meters from the garage and wasn't driving rough. I guess the engine was in a very bad condition. The transmission was left in the car and it's in the same condition as when we took the engine out, I have not done anything with it.

The engine got seized up, so we removed the cylinder heads and lubricated the cylinders with engine oil, that made it possible to turn the engine again (by hand). This allowed us to remove the flexplate nuts so the transmission and engine could be separated.

I'm starting to think that we maybe did something wrong in the first attempt to install the rebuild engine.

Bent the flexplate? Somehow destroyed something in the torus?

If I take the engine and transmission apart again, should I be able to turn the torus around by hand in neutral?

The new mounts for the transmission is also making the trans go higher than before, I will try to raise the engine in the front and see if that helps.


Thanks!

 

Doubt the mounts are the issue. It sounds more like crank bearings are SHOT. You also have to remember that you might have done some real damage to the thrust washer main bearing, which I believe is the rear main bearing. Yank the engine, put on a stand, and start with the oil pan. Remove that, then start pulling rod caps, then main caps. I doubt you had any oil pressure if it seized that fast. Good luck.

 

The engine is already rebuilt with new bearings everywhere, pistons 030, camshaft, balanced crankshaft and so on (I think it's called a deluxe rebuild kit).

My problem is that it won't turn when I lift it into the car and bolt it to the transmission, the engine turns on the stand.

 

I'd suggest pulling the Hydro out and going from there. If you can spin the engine on its own on a stand, and you can spin the Hydro while it's sitting on the floor, you have a start.

Bolt them back together, if they both still spin, then put it in the car. If it stops spinning once it's in the car, that'll give you an idea of problems. (ie. the mounts are putting things out of line). If it doesn't spin on the floor, you'll know that your problem is somewhere in where the engine bolts to the transmission.

And a stupid question, just for the sake of asking... The car was running and driving. You pulled the engine, but left the Hydro in place. I ***ume that means that the driveshaft is still connecting the rear end to the transmission. Are your rear tires off the ground? Is the transmission in neutral?
When you try to spin the engine in the car, are you actually trying to turn the tires too without realizing?

 

This is unclear.


Did the motor seize first, and then you did the coplete rebuild. OR did you rebuild it, and then it seized up?




If it seized after the rebuild, but you pulled heads to free it up, then I think it needs to come apart again.


If it was rebuilt after you freed it up with heads off, then I would test run the engine out of the car to see if it has oil pressure and runs OK.


Then go on to the trans fit problems.

 

Yes I think I will have to do that procedure, it doesn't seem to be a common failure . Yes, the rear end are connected to the transmission and the rear tires are on the ground. I did put the trans in Neutral from inside the car, but maybe it isn't changing gear as it should?

I will try to raise the rear end too and test

Sorry, my mistake. It got seized before the rebuild.
I don't have any possibilities to run the engine out of the car , but I will certainly use an oil pressure gauge when it's time for the startup.

 

A month later. Any solution?