IAN's chevy..Paint problems,,,Whats going on in these pics?

THANK YOU , RYNO, gets it, stand up guy, that understands , unfortunatly, it's the second group you talk of that , Knows just enought to be dangerous. thats why all the pro painters always use the ol' addage, everyone ones a bodyman, painter. hell if I need helpI can go to the bar and hire 5 guys. But thats why I work alone.LOL

 

Well if you know for sure what it is...?

I get that you're looking for opinions from other pros out here, and I'd never fault someone for that. So I have to say that according to the info you've shared, the proper application and talent applied, the mil thickness considered throughout the job (although the pics DO look like the overall surface is too thick), that leaves by process of elimination, product failure. In the one picture you shared it appears as though the clear is "walking around" over the top of everything else, like delaminating in fissures rather than layers. If the clear is HOK and was done 2yrs ago, there was indeed a technical issue with their catalyst compatibility to the VOC changes. This was confirmed by a very reliable source a while back when I experienced a different issue, and the HOK tech line was no help at all saying all was good. It wasn't. 2yrs ago the issue shoulda been resolved, but you mighta been a victim of old or rotated stock. That's all it can be in light of everything you've pointed out since the 1st post, but in all fairness it does look thick in the pics except for that 1.

 

You've gotten lots of advice from people who are FAR more experienced than me ... but I have a slightly different theory than most. I had the same thing happen to me, and I don't believe it was related to too much body filler. I think it was simply too hot in your shop/paint booth when the base coat was applied, or you may have used a medium temp reducer instead of a high temp one. In either case, the paint flashes at the surface in the high heat and seems ready for the next base coat or even clear. In reality, the VOCs are still cooking out from below the apparently-dry surface. Doesn't show up immediately but by the next day it appears as little white spots. Short version: it ain't in the bondo ... its coming from the paint.

 

But these aren't white spots, and this isn't the next day...

 

pic #1 i believe is the gravel pan on the front of car, part of the problem I see I would say is calcium depost's under paint causeing, lil white bubbles, and then to the front of that is a hairline crack that I feel is bondo cracking loose from the feather edge do to metal not being ground with corse enough disk, or possibly metal has oil from skin before application of filler, (ie dirty metal) which includes not blowing off dust before application, these are the type of answers that a pro painter is going to have, and the guy who ownes a hf hvlp gun isnt going to understand. so yes part painter problem do to not getting surface wiped clean with hydro clean which removes calcium depost that wax and grease wont touch, but the solution to fixing the crack is grind it too metal redo, if bondo doesnt feather then you must remove all bondo.

 

So what is this thread? A guessing game for professional painters only and you know the answer and want to see if anybody else is as smart as you? At least that's the impression I get from reading the thread.
Sorry I don't qualify to participate :-(

 

A guy that knows his shit asking for advice and confirmation from other guys that know their shit.

 

fink'd, is it a possibility that someone applied filler over another coat without thoroughly sanding? such as evercoat metal glaze over rage filler that wasnt properly sanded like there was avery small spot in the rage that didnt get the top glazed over layer totally sanded? i have seen similar looking problems in the past and this was the culprit.. just my .02 but hope this helps. hot rust........

 

Sorry, no I am looking for the guys who can drop the ego and give me an answer, that even sounds like they know what they are talking about. Kinda like when a gear head is telling you he used to have a big block 454 with a 1000 hp nitrous shot on his blown camero that he could turn to blower on when he needed and hit the nos and spin the tires in 4th gear, as he passed the slow people on the high way, and it would just scare the hell outta the people I was blowin by, dang good times. man I shoulda never sold that car, never lost a race...you know that kinda guy and answer, and NO I am not the best, painter in the world but I DO take pride in my work and I have learned from all my mistakes and yes I do make them, and fix them when I do, Just trying to get to the real reason of this paint failure. thank you to all who have helped, keep 'em coming. please.

 

With the reflective value I see in the pics I'd say you did give it some personal investment. Makes a failure even harder to accept, but shit happens. When I blow up what you posted I see a "texture" to the finish. That wasn't there when it was 1st done, right? The panels look good and flat, very little to no distortion, but the surface is giving a tell. Not all chemical issues raise their ugly head right away. What product is it, if you don't mind telling?

 

Here you go highlander

 

you mentioned direct to metal polyester primer and that was done two years ago...

not sure what brand you use...but the evercoat Slick Sand cans used to say direct to metal, but no longer do,,,,now Evercoat recommends you to use Finish sand/fiberfill or superbuild when applying over bare metal.... just thought id mention,,,i have no idea what happened,, just an opinion,,but the more i think about it i would lean towards the polyester primer being the culprt...

 

Nothing has changed with Slick Sand Evercoat is just covering their ass by recommending you put an epoxy or etch under it. As for the others mentioned the Finish Sand is the only one that is a real DTM as it is an epoxy/polyester hybrid. They others dtm capabilities are based on their build caracteristics not their anti corrosion properties.

Jeff is there filler under each of those cracks or are some just primer and paint? I guess what I am asking is do you think it IS a paint issue or what is under it?

 

I have no clue what I'm talking about, but after reading each and every page on the "Why $8K Paint Jobs Thread", I salute every one of you guys who have risen to the top in the Painting Game......Huge Hats off to finkd for offering a chance to the rest of you for your insights. The Best of you earn every nickle you make......Centurion9

 

I have seen Poly fail over bare metal before, I don't know what kind your using I know you said its supposed to be ok over metal, but poly usually doesn't stick all that well to bare metal, even ground clean prepped metal. It does stick, and it feathers, but its not a chemical bond (usually), if its something important I found it best to never put it over metal. If your trying a new kind that you haven't used a ton of it might be that its just coming off, even though they said it wont.

 

OK , I can by that, and if it fails what does it do? It goes to the delamination side of town and comes off in a chunk or a sheet, leaving a spot with no primer, paint and clear. is this what the pic shows? It looks in the pic like there is still adhesion, just a big ol crack, that looks pretty deep more then the few mills of primer and paint........ this pic shows a repair, that happened before it left the shop because there wasn't a check strap and door got opened to far, look at the film thickness of the layers, very thin in my opinion.

 

Ya I don't think its too thick at all, looks pretty normal for custom paint thickness to me.. something isn't happy in those layers.. just have to pick at it and get a piece of it off to see what it really is I guess...

 

For a custom color job, that's thin enough. If you don't want to spill the brand names out there, I suppose I understand. One of your substrates failed and took everything with it, or one reacted with another and heat aggravated it long enough to burst open or seriously shrink. Also, is this a few select areas or we talkin the whole car?

 

See post #41

 

Jeff I will ask again is there filler under all the spots that cracked?

 

I see you mentioned calcium contamination. Is that a problem where you're from? How does it happen? You're not saying the bare metal has been washed are you? Those pictures look like those are all top surfaces, so heat is an issue. Paint doesn't split like that unless its either too thick or sitting on something that doesn't expand or contract at the same rate,that it doesn't cross link with, or wasn't properly prepped for. So, if you were to take a blow gun to one of those splits, what flies off and what stays behind?

I for one am still on the fence over polysurfacer. I like the idea of it. I have used it, it makes my life easier, but I'm waiting on it to bite me in the ass. It is what it is....sprayable body filler.

So, before this becomes another body/paint pissing match what is the paint peeling down to?

 

I missed the Sikkens deal, but who's polyester primer? Some of the bigger paint manufacturers have their own, PPG dropped theirs or so I'm told, and most use SlikSand or Featherfill around here. I'm not hip to any of the other "mail order" paint brands that many others use so I remove them from any professional discourse on this stuff. Just sayin, just askin...

In the end it's more product related than anything, or it sat in 115deg heat for like 3-4 days in a row and it took it's toll. Even as correct and within standards the mil thickness appears, a kustom job is thicker than OEM by a damn sight and they don't like that for too long. Too much "correct" in the info to steer this any other way. Can I phone a friend?

 

I havent forgotten you, I will answer that soon....sorry to make you hang , but got more to cover here and I want to be very thorough in my info so we get an acurate problem solved on this.

 

I will wait patiently.

 

Cracked filler it looks like


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Good for you to come on and try asking to see if anybody had experience with your problem. Sometimes we are so close to the problem that we can't identify it. It is a good thing to get a different perspective......some would let their pride get in the way of asking for help.....good on you!

 

Thank you everyone....here is my opinion and it seems as several others came up with the same opinion, BUT I am a stand up guy and I will make the offer to take care of this problem, Ian can stand right next to me and I will sand the paint down to primer, if the crack remains we will carry on, IF the crack is below paint into filler then we go to metal, and Ian will be responsible for that portion of the repairs, that is more then fair, I will fall back on my supplier for materials, paint labor is on me, anything more is on Ian,I am putting it out there and now everyone knows. The shit talking needs to stop, seems as tho evryone one from coast to coast has heard about my painting skills. we will now get to the bottom of it, but Ian will have to bring the car out just like last time. Its over THE END. here is some pics of how I got the car and of when I was painting it, I am saying it is bondo crack down center of hood , we will find out why when we take it to metal......

 

I did the antennas see how the bondo work is and the color, compaired to the rest of the work. This was a very touchy job, I thought I made it clear I wouldn't be responsible for any bondo cracking, butI am a fair guy and want to put this to rest and stop all the shit talk, I have made my offer........ If I get the chance to repair this car I will post pics of what is found. you can see in this pic when i primed it and sanded all the steps. I looked at my notes today , I did epoxy prime then pcl brand black poly primer, then sikkens sealer , color and clear, you can see in first pic the pcl is starting to cover the epoxy, which is the greenish color product, then when blocking you can see i took it down very thin to where you can see the green breaking thru, then I reprimed areas as needed,

 

yes the shot in the booth with all the bare metal and bondo is after I had blocked it all out straight, I did da the surface rust off before it was primed, dont worry. I feel that all the issues are bondo cracking as many have looked at pics and said the same, paint just doesnt crack like that, esspecially down the center of the two piece hood, that is most likely bondo and if it was welded solid it could have been ground too thin making metal flex and bondo doesnt flex as weel and cracks. thats my side of the story, I've mad e the offer It is up to Ian to decide how he wants to handle it. I have learned a valuable lesson, and I think Ian has too, I can learn from my mistakes and admit to making them, the true test is fixing them and making it where nobody can tell, and by that I mean not changing colors and doing a whole different thing like soo many carsa have been done when they have problems.

 

and the clear... I was drinking coffee cause it was like 4 am when i was painting this....