235 diy honing and polishing can it be done?

Hey there fellow hambers, so finally i decided to man up and went balls out tearing apart my 54 chevy to 235 3 spd. I had previously taken it to a shop and was quoted at 1900 out the door with a full rebuild kit. Top to bottom. I am on a budget and so I ended up tearing apart myelf.....the engine was seized after 25 years of storage so I followed intructions that I read on here and used deisel,****** oil etc. After a few days it still did not crank so I spun it with out the starter using a big claw hammer at the fly wheel.... Turned over but with resistance....at top stroke its supper hard to spin....so I gutted it yesterday and there was lots of sludge and what not.. I saw no metal shavings so that was a good sign. So I found out that my main and rod bearings are really in good shape. I cant say the same for my cam bearing.. The rear cam bearing(freeze flug end) was supper gouged....all the rest were in good shape...4 of my lifters seemed welded on so that was defenitly a problem aswell as the rear cam bearing so I moved on to my pistons and yup 4 came out like ****er and clinder 4 and 5 were welded on at top stroke...So I used a ruber malet and they cam out...rings were cracked on those 2. So For sure I need a bearing and new piston rings aswell as a oil pump since that thing looks like it has roofing tar. I am on a super tight budget and I am not building a show car or a muscle car just a cruiser so I have to avoid spending lots of money plus I wanna do everything myself... I am not master tech or machinist but I am mechanicly inclined and I love to learn so I want to do it myself without paying a shop to do it for me. I have seen diy light honing or degalzing on youtube and it seems straight forward....Do you guys think that this will solve my sticking piston ring problem(did not see deep gouges on cylinder walls)by honing it down a bit and saving myself tons of cash? My shop will charge me like 200 bucks to bore it down but then I would need bigger pistons and rings right?I hope I can hone it at home and save myself money by using standard size rings and my old pistons... Feedback is needed....Thanks to all and sorry for the story long post above..LOl

 

Inspect the stuck pistons carefully, make sure none of the ring lands broke or cracked. That's the part of the piston that goes between the rings.

How much of a ridge was there at the top of the bores? there is usually a short ring around the very top of the bore, about 1/4" to 3/8" deep that, is not worn by the rings, and "sticks out" from the cylinder wall. you might be able to judge how much the bores are worn, by how thick this ridges is. Unless the last guy who worked on the engine reamed the ridge away...

But yeah, you can do a "ring job" on an old engine yourself, just don't expect it to last forever. Having it rebored makes the bores straight, not tapered out at the top, so the rings will last a lot longer.

 

Id get the cam bearings intalled and the crank turned if needed by an engine shop. Make sure the rocker shafts arent burnt up and that all the oil holes are clear. If your budget allows it have the block boiled out too & a valve job done on it. What you save now may cost you in the future as far as engine life goes.

 

usually when I've done a "cheap" overhaul, I've had the block cleaned, honed, and new cam bearings installed by the machine shop. I also have them do a valve job. I usually even have them get the parts for me, and I just do the final cleaning and ***embly.

But with todays shop labor rates, that can add up to over $1000. Hardly "cheap".

 

Wow guys thx for the good info ..That was super quick and that is why I love H.A.M.B.

The shop did not mess with the engine just went by what they saw without the head. There is a ring at the top of all 6 cilinders about a 1/4 inch tall around. I am not sure how deep but from what I saw the piston ring stops at that line when on up stroke. The actual pistons have no cracks it seemed but the rings felt super sharp.The crank is super shinny where the bearings go. The cam will probably need a polish for sure .
I will call the shop and see if they can hook me up. Thanks again guys... If its too much then I will hone it out myself and knock on wood.

 

Get yourself an inside mic or some snap gauges and a mic the right size. Mic your cylinders and see if they are within tolerance, may as well mic your pistons as well and make sure that they are still big enough (not too much piston to wall clearance). You cylinders should be straight and round top to bottom.

If everything checks out you can probably break the glaze and ring it.

Do not hammer the lifters out of their bores, get yourself a can of liquid wrench ( the real liquid wrench) and start soaking them morning and evening, wiggleing them a little at a time after a few days that should come out. If you just hammer them out you will probably destroy the lifter bore then it will need to be bored and bushed.

Later gator
benno

 

You don't want to polish the cam...if it's rusty or worn, you should get a reground cam and new (or resurfaced) lifters, from some place like Delta cams.

Also, see if you can take apart and clean the oil pump. If it's just dirty, you can probably reuse it.

Pictures would help, you know.

 

Should have used a ridge reamer BEFORE knocking the pistons out. You say 2 pistons were stuck, and beating/driving them out broke the rings. Like Squirrel already said, you may have damaged the ring lands; the cracks/breaks could be microscopic, so you would'nt see them. If you don't remove the cylinder ridge, the "new" ***embly can bottom out at TDC on the ridge, and break rings/ring lands. With the mention of "sludge", it's probably fairly high mileage, and needs a rebore. There are plenty of how-to books on rebuilding an engine; check your local library. Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

Called my machine guy and has quoted me at 15 bucks a cylinder to bore or hone depending on whats needed. 50 bucks to hot tank the block... I called my parts guy and he is asking me if I need my rings standard or oversized.. Is that up to the machine guy and how much he cuts from the cylinder walls? or whats the difference?I cant believe it might need alot of cutting I mean the darn thing only has 33k miles ...

Yeah I will also clean out my pump and see hope that it works...thats an extra 60 bucks in my wallet if it does! lol

 

33k miles since what?

 

Maybe it would be simpler just to find a good used engine and swap that in. 235's are pretty common and cheap.
Tom

 

You said that two pistons were stuck at the top, does that mean that is would not turn over or you had a hard time getting them out of the bores.

There was a thread on the last tech week that would have given you some insites before you started beating on it.

if the pistons were stuck as in welded or rusted to the cylinder bores it may take some cutting to clean the bores up. If the bores are not straight or have much pitting it may take some cutting to get them to clean up. If you need to get larger pistons you will need oversized rings.

If you do nothing else go read this thread so you can at the very least have a semi intellegent conversation with your machinist.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=679583&highlight=inspection

 

Lol curb feeler im still spinning....
The car has 33 k miles when parked....owner past away...at least thats
what they sold me on.

Yeah that would be sweet if I could find a 53-54 235 or a 50's 261 but they are sc**** in So. Cal....I had one line up that fired right up but the guy flaked....Got one on the hook right now who claims it was rebuilt 3 years ago and never installed it again....He said its been in storage sitting the with fresh oil....What do you think...? I wanna call his bs so might go check it out this after noon and see if the engine is not seized

 

OK this is not going to sound nice but here is something that you have to think of. That car only has 33K on it. It is a '54 chevy that has been in storage 25 years which means it was 33 years old when it was parked.

So you bought a one owner car that was only driven 1,000 miles a year. Hell I wouldn't overhaul it I would build a shrine around it.

Not trying to be mean here just want you to think a little.

Here is something to look for when you go look at the rebuilt 235 before you look at anything else. Is there over spray on edges of the gaskets. if there is don't waste your time, that is what we call a rattle can overhaul.

 

Won't hurt to check it out.
Tom

 

Well guys thanks for all your help....Been a member for about a week or so and everytime I am on here my amazement seems to grow. Very good and knowledgable peeps that are ready to help a lost soul.. Thanks again

I will go check out that rebuilt 235 and keep all your thoughts in mind.
I will also be at the Pomona swapmeet in august with my eyes pealed and my fingers crossed looking for that one 235 that catches my eye.

Thanks again

Jesse

 

Jesse,
There should be a lot of the fellas at the Pomona swap. Maybe post looking for someone to hang with a second set of eyes is always a good thing to have.

 

You will need more than just over sized rings if the cylinders are bored over sized. You will need the larger pistons as well. Actually, the machine shop will need the new pistons before they can bore and hone the block. They will measure the pistons and bore accordingly.

 

...or they will bore and then see how big the pistons need to be. last one I did was standard, and needed .060" to clean it up completely.

 

The photo shows a 235 I did about 6 years ago.The never bored cylinders were tapered about .004.I found three NOS .001 oversize pistons for chump change on Ebay and kept the largest of the 3 existing pistons. Using the rank and pinion drive Lisle hone and a bore gauge ,I honed the cylinders to about .001 taper and called it good.Piston clearance was a bit sloppy of course.Cast iron rings,I think they were slightly oversize and a proper valve and guide job done at a machine shop.
The engine ran good,zero piston slap,used no oil to speak of in my 50 Chevy PU. Hauled firewood and junk.I decided the truck needed a hot rod 261 so I sold the hillbilly rebuilt 235 to some guy who's still using it.It won't last 100,000 miles but it'll run 30,000 if you don't beat the **** out of it.

 

That's the right way to do a "cheap" overhaul....thanks for showing us

 

YEA ON TH QUICK HONE OUT REBUILD WITH SOME TAPER YOU CAN KNURL THE PISTONS TO TAKE OUT SLOPops
on the scream
also these may be suceptable to ring lands wearing out, a old time machine shop can cut for spacers
lots of ways to skin a cat on this stuff if you use some common sense it is not a blown 1000 hp on nitro
it will stay together if you do things in a craftsman like manner
cranks will get by by removing spacers
i did my first overhaul on one and ***embled it in 2 hours and it went down the road for 10,000 miles beating the hell out of it

 

Thanks guys for your feedback....I would try and do it myself but I have to spend like 500 in parts....and after its all put together I dont wanna have a dead motor with no change....I have been looking all day today for a motor and the ones that I have found they want a arm and leg..super over priced. I cant seem to find a 261 truck motor...I heard that if I get lets say a 53-54 261 it will bolt right up since my car is a 54... I have found late 50's 235s but I think I need to make some mounts since they are front mounted and I dont have the resources to fab those up..... Hopefully something comes up....

 

I would try and do it myself but I have to spend like 500 in parts....

Cam bearings are about $35, good ring sets about $85, and a cheap set of Hbr Fright China micrometers (on sale $32), telescoping gauges ($14) , and a cheap digital caliper ($12).

So far, that is a cheap education.

 

I'm not big on trusting a telescoping gauge to measure a bore accurately. Then you have to have decent micrometer reading skills. A dial bore gauge is far more accurate. I don't have one, but I know where to borrow one. This is why the machine shop price of $1900 doesn't seem too bad for an A-Z rebuild.

Bob

 

The Lisle hone mentioned above will make the cyl. round and take the taper out , depending on the skill of the operator ( or maybe the patience). Use co****r stones to start and finish with fine stones the last maybe .002". You may be able to find .010" over pistons. Unfortunately the Lisle hone is probably $150 now.

 

The "wear limits" in factory manuals from the 50s and 60s were intended to keep cars on the road for several more years and running well. Plymouth allowed over 0.008" taper on slant 6 and Hemi cylinders. Oil consumption of a quart/1000 miles was acceptable back then. Now it's grounds for a cl*** action suit.

David Vizard offers some pretty practical info about measuring cylinder wear with fancy tools and a lot of other useful stuff here -
http://books.google.com/books?id=G2...nepage&q=chevrolet engine wear limits&f=false

I think the ~0.002" cylinder taper limit common nowadays is more a result of emissions legislation as any basic functional limitation.

For a ring-and-bearing rebuild to perform well there are many clearances and geometries that all need to be within reasonable wear limits. ***uming they are is risky on a good running engine. The odds are far worse on an engine with no known history and obvious storage damage. A few hundred thoughtful measurements need to be done by someone to keep the rebuild from being a ****shoot.

>>Then<< there is still cleaning and ***embly to be done.

Just saying that desire and enthusiasm by themselves can't cull out the worn out parts. Measuring will.

 

Wow 10K I am impressed. I guess if all you had was the vehicle in question and it got you to and from work until you could afford something better that is a good thing.


I would not build a 235 with winning the daytona 500 in mind but an engine that is properly built will last a long time. If a 235 is what you want it should last a long time shouldn't it?

 

That whole thread I posted is "hillbilly" measuring. It was designed for the beginner.

I have a cam bushing tool that I made for 6 cylinders around here somewhere. The machine shop that I use here in town only charges about 20 bucks to install them. Sometimes it is good to use the machine shop for little things to establish a relationship.

There are some old tricks that can be used to get around beyond tolerance problems but there is no reason to post them until we know what the problems are.

 

Some guys don't like knurl jobs but if can get the right clearence by only knurling the non thrust side it works well. I see way to many old pistons knurled on both skirts.