Guys... As most of you know, I busted *** to get my Deuce to Heavy Rebel this last weekend. If you were there, you know that I have some ****** problems. The throwout bearing seized on it as I was pulling into the show. Let me add that if you are planning a sbc/early ford ****** combo, DO NOT use the part #'s in the Hot Rod Deluxe article on this swap...doesn't work!! The fingers on the pressure plate are way too long, even if you machine down the collar that the throw out bearing rides on. To get the car to the show, I had to take a dremel & cut 3/8" off each finger. I now have the throwout bearing unstuck & greased as per others suggestions on the Fordbarn, and it is working so far. That being said, at the first sign of more problems, I am going to go to the 3 finger B&B pressure plate. I have a fairly stout 327, Speed Gems adaptor, '39 ford ****** with 26 tooth Lincoln gears, and a stock '32 rearend. I know that this isn't an ideal combo, but I wanted the car to remain similar to the way that it was parked in '59...except for the 327 of course! I went through the ****** as per Mac Vanpelt's book, replacing all bearings, shims, & syncro rings. At that time, everything else looked great. The ****** shifts great, but it grinds when I downshift to second. Speed doesn't seem to make a difference. Double clutching doesn't help. It upshifts fine. I originally ran 85/140 lucas gear oil, but was told to go to 600wt, which made it worse. I am now going to try 85/140 GL4 gear oil. Pennzoil syncromesh has also been suggested, but it seems way thin to me. I pulled the cover off last night, and everything is intact. Obviously, I can't see the condition of the inside cone on the syncro rings, but I can see a little gap between them & their ***ociated gears, so I think they are ok. Finally...my question...is this normal? Should it grind? Some have told me they do & some have said they don't. This is my first old ******, so I am in the dark. I realize it probably won't shift like the muncies & tremecs I am used to. I want it to be right, & I certainly don't want to damage the gears, but I don't want to chase ghosts either... Thanks for your help!!! Sam
No How bad were the small teeth on 2nd gear and the slider hub? all rounded off? Did you try seating the new ring against the cone on 2nd gear and twist it to see how it fit?
Quote>"Should it grind? " No, and you should be able to double clutch down easily. It sounds like the clutch may not be releasing completely. Even dragging a little bit will screw up shifting.
Small teeth had some wear, but still had a pretty sharp triangle pattern to them. When I pulled the cover off, I did notice that the metal was raised on the sides of the syncro hub gears (that the slider slides over).
I didn't realize it was grinding was happening even during a double clutch or whatnot. Normally if you let it fall into neutral before forcing it into the next gear you shouldn't hear anything but a "chick chick" even on a 3rd to 2nd shift.....especially with the heavy gear oil. Somethings gotta be not disengaging. Perhaps some pics of the inside of the trans would help one of the masters figure out if everything is good to go inside the case before having to get into the clutch.
Jeffrey & Pete, Double clutching makes no difference whatsoever. I will pull the cover off again tomorrow & take some pictures. My first thought was that the clutch wasn't disengaging, & I have adjusted the clutch pedal to the point that the throwout bearing is just off of the pressure plate...no difference. It seems to be disengaging when pushing the car & working the clutch. I tried to get something in to measure the free space on the clutch but didn't have any luck. Thanks for the help guys... Sam
You mentioned you cut the fingers on the pressure plate, maybe they are not exactly even and one side is dragging a little?
Yes. Normally, if the clutch is dragging just a bit, you'd start the motor and when you try shifting into first of reverse, it would grind a bit before going in. That is not unusual with a new disc that may have a few raised edges that need wearing in. Some people get the habit of going into third, only to slow the disc down, before shifting to low or reverse, to finally start moving. I don't know if a dragging disc is causing the 3-2 grinding? You would think it might also show up a bit on 1-2 upshift, or 2-3 upshift? Well, right before I checked everything worth checking and was ready to start pulling the trans, I maybe would switch to ATF for a 10 mile test run. I suppose it's possible the new 2nd gear ring needs seating in? maybe a few burrs on it?
After rebuilding my '39 box, I took a local trans guru for a ride and he told me that if I wanted to get rid of that last little sound when downshifting, drain the oil and replace with Lubriplate 250W. It's available from www.restorationspecialties.com, and it's the cat's meow. It's a modern lube, not like 600W, and it's kinda stringy. Another good thing, it doesn't smell bad. I love the stuff. Trans now shifts with a "click" and nothing else.
Ditto JimSig..... Those oldie boxes like a bit of finesse..... Shift a tad slower, than with the Muncies, and Tremecs..... Happy Roddin' 4TTRUK
That's quite possible, I got them as close as I could but there isn't a whole lot of room to get down in there. It very well may be a clutch problem and at this point it will not bother me too much to pull the motor & trans & start all over. I myself was initially thinking a clutch problem but it goes into first & reverse just fine, and seems to upshift ok.
Hmmm.....could be a synchro problem too. I've been having fun with an old Chevy truck transmission, the synchro looks perfect but grinds if I don't give things enough time to get engaged properly.
I didnt read the HRD article but the clutch pack combination you need for SB Chevy to early Ford trans aluminum bell housing adapter is 10"- 1950 Merc Pressure plate and 10" 1942-48 Ford clutch disc as well as using a 1932-48 throw out bearing. The Merc presure plate is the same bolt pattern as the GM flywheel. You do not have to cut or grind clearance to make this combo work. The info provided said you did so that is an indication you have a mismatch of parts, also make sure that you have a bushing pilot bearing not a ball bearing pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft. If the bearing unit fails it drags on the input shaft and make shifting difficult.
Did you replace the synchros when you rebuilt? Obviously worn synchros will not properly synchronize and lead to a grinding in the 3-2 downshift. Years ago when I rebuilt mine for the first time I thoght the synchros were too tight when hand fitting and took some sandpaper and slightly sanded the little ribs on the inside down an tad. I started experience incomplete synchronization after a while and had to go slow on the downshifts until I rebuilt it with new synchronizer rings.
What a *****! I gave the wrong website for Restoration Supply Co. It's www.restorationstuff.com. Hope this gets you through to them.
The HRD deluxe article was about a modern PP that had the right finger pattern (ie, big space in the middle) to suit early Ford. It was supposedly effectively a modern replacement for the now somewhat scarce '49-50 Merc piece with that bolt pattern. I think the one they photographed did have what looked like proper fingers...sounds like they screwed up the article, though, from what you and another person I know said. Your PP is obviously pure GM or similar to '51-53 Merc... Has anyone gotten to the bottom of the problem with the HRD article? Is it simply another journalistic screw-up or was there actually a modern diaphragm PP that they designated with incorrect source and number?? I sure do hate street rod type journalism written by people who do not understand what they are writing...those Merc plates are getting scarce.
Guys, I finally broke down & tore my Deuce apart last night. My clutch & pressure plate shipped from Wilcap Thursday. While I was at it, I pulled the main shaft out of the ****** for inspection. I found that while the syncros looked good & all of the "ridges" were intact on the inside, one of them is apparently oversized...it will seat up completely against 2nd gear & doesn't grip tightly at all. The one on the main drive gear is fine & it seems to seat on 2nd the way that it should. I am also going to replace the syncro hub & slider...they both have some wear as well. Do the gears look o.k.? The teeth on 2nd gear are more rounded than the main drive gear. Since these are Lincoln gears, I don't really want to buy new ones. Should I file the ends to more of a triangle shape? Are they usable as is? This is my first early ford ****** & I sure could use some more help... Thanks... Sam
I think you found the problem. That one synchro ring is seated too close to the mating synchro teeth on the gear. In effect, it's traveled over to those teeth without really grabbing the cone to synchronize the speeds of the gears. We've scuttled those rings for another ring i get that still has a good gap before the cone tightens up.
Don't file them... Be sure to get the correct slider,...there are 3 different ones, and they all will fit. A customer's top shifter had an incorrect slider installed by persons unknown, and it would pop out of 2nd gear with a loud "bang". As said, these take a little finesse when driving,...but they are reliable. happy Roddin' 4TTRUK
Mac.. So it sounds like your syncros are better than these? I was planning on ordering everything I need from you tomorrow anyway, so that's good to know.... Thanks... Sam
You won't file them,they are as hard as woodpecker lips. A bit of work with a Dremel and cut off wheel will help. I alway blipthe gas as I down shift these older boxs,the syncros are not as powerful as stuff made in the last 30-40 years.
Sam....if I were to put both the rings side by side, you wouldn't be able to see the difference between them. Both look shiny gold and look perfectly made. It's not til you slide them each onto the tapered cone on a main drive gear, or onto a second gear....the you see the gap, or lack thereof.
Agree 100%...with the travel on that ring it is doing nothing in its job description. Listen to Mac VP. For a while, no decent synchros were available new and because of problems like yours used ones were the proper choice...testing basically involved pushing them and turning to see if they would overtravel or fail to grip. TQW, you did a good diagnostic job and just needed to believe your eyes! In the current repro parts world there are plentiful unusable parts...you need to test everything that did not actually p*** through Henry's hands, and it is good to find vendors like Mac who understand parts and avoid selling junk, unlike some of the bigger and better known catalog places who sell the same unusable parts year after year and "never, ever, heard of any problems with those...and you installed it wrong, we're sure..."
Your first pic shows a bit of sandcast surface between the teeth on the syncro ring. This is just like a pair of rings I bought along with a stash of other early Ford transmission parts. I'm think unused production from the 80's or earlier. They looked suspect to me. I had purchased nice rings from VanPelt for another project, and think I'll toss my sandcasty rings and get more nice ones from Mac.
Feom aguy who has done this a lot of times The mercury clutch is the way to go For the grinding, i suspect the slider and the syncros are mismatched. There are at least 2 different 39 sliders. The short term cure is to bring the shifter over and just touch first gear when dwnshifting and it will slide right in
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