ok so here we go, one of my friends has a 389 pontiac engine and trans ,, it was used as an old circle track engine for awhile and then pulled and has been sitting since 1964 ,,the engine has 3 2barrel rochesters on it and i from waht ive been told everythings there ( i havent seen it yet ) ,, the trans is an old cast iron auto and is still attached to the engine, now , how often where these used in rods , are they a good engine at all, anybody know anywhere to get rebuild parts for it,,anybody know if these engines had any probs that would cause them to crack or be unuseable, in other words i dont want to buy an engine that useless/worthless,, hes askin $800 for the engine tranny everything, so i would appreciate any help on this thanks jacob
Welp.........nobody else stepped up so I will. I'm a pontiac guy and I've run early 389 Ponchos in many old cars...most notably 55-57 Pontiac 2 doors and hardtops. I love 'em. I'm not too sure I'd part with $800 for the engine until I knew a little more about it and the tranny. If the big ol cast iron tranny has a bottom pan and a smaller oil pan on the side, it's an early 4 speed hydromatic. If it's only got one pan on the bottom, it's a later transmission and in my opinion, GM never made a good pontiac/olds tranny after the slantpan [2 oil pans] hydro until the 400 turbo was installed in 65. If it has the 2 oilpans, look around on it for a B&M sticker. If it was in a racer, it may well have had a "B&M Hydro" in it. This is good. Even a stock 4 speed hydro is good for a hotrod... Now the engine..........389's first came out in '59 and the base 4 barrel version made an honest 303 hp. That's gonna make a fun ride in a light hotrod model A or something similar. They also made big-cam, tripower 389's up to about 335 HP in the 64 GTO. They are very exciting in a light car too. There is a pretty good markeet for used and new speed parts and rebuild parts aren't that much more expensive than a SBC. They usually weigh in about 75 LBS more than a SBC but that's 75 lbs less than a big block chev. They're just a snitch bigger than a small block too and fit about the same with side mount bosses on the '59 and later engines. They're tough on timing chains and a guy really should swap in a new chain before firing the ol' girl up. If yours is a real race motor, I'd tear it completely down and check everything before I fired it. Manual tranny bellhousings for the 59-64 engines are available but hard to find. I believe all the cranks are machined to accept a pilot bearing if you wanted to go with a stick tranny. Don't expect to wind up your pontiac like a sbc too many times or it'll go "POP" and you'll be shopping for a new one. They're usually good to about 5000-5500 without danger of blowing if it's got good oil pressure. Here's my 1960 389, taken out 0.030 for 394.5 cu. in. Mine runs a Wolverine Ram Air 3 cam [mucho hairy] with a set of Rhoades lifters, flatops and a balance job. I pocket-ported the heads and have a later model HEI distributor in it.... haven't fired it yet but I expect to get about 350-370 hp from it... BTW, look at the front of the engine, down low on the passenger side and gimme the stamped-in letters and numbers. I'll be able to tell you what it originally was....
Hey.. My imput... Too much $$... Not much in aftermarket parts available for the 389 Better off with mid 60s early 70s 400/428/455, lot of stuff available, easy to find cheap, easy to get 400 HP with little cash Just my thoughts... Pontiac Slim 31 Ford.. 455 Pontiac powered
Can't add much to what Rocky said, but the tranny sounds like a second generation hydro, which were used from '58 or '59, best memory serves. The originals that B & M did were mostly the '55 to '57 units, which were killer, to say the least. Anyhow, the old 389's are a helluva motor. Don
well i got a 32 ford pickup and its got a 351w and a c4 and i dont really care for it at all, and i could probably offer this guy less for the engine but i wanna check it out first and by the way thinks for the info guys,, heres a pic of my truck
You are probally gonna need some pictures. V-8 Pontiacs are diffrent from 65 and up to 64 and older. Diffrent still are 57 to 60 and 61 to 64. They all look VERY similar to the untrained eye and some parts interchange thought the year breaks. A quick check is the starter...If it bolts to the block like a Chevvie, it a 65 and up. If it bolts to the tranny, it's a 64 and older. Either way, they are bitchn' engines. Shit pots of torque and pretty good speed parts and rebuild parts availability. PLUS, they are not a Chevvie. As with any engine, if it came out of a circle track car, there is probally a reason it came OUT of the circle track car. Buyer beware. Find some casting #'s or some pics. If it ends up a 65 adn up, I can give you most any advise you should need. If she is a 64 and older, I bow to Rocky and Axle's superior knowledge. Good luck, -Abone. PS. For what it's worth...my mild Poncho was almost the fastest street car at teh HAMB Drags last year. Second only to Ryans bad fucking ass Reher&Morrison big inch Chevvie motor...(by 2 one hundredths....)
and by the way,, i got a 1969 cadillac 472 torn down in my garage right now, and i heard i could use the manual 4spd ponchos and olds of the same years, just askin on what ya think that would do for my pick em up,, and going off of waht the seller says the trans is a 4 spd auto, and the engine came from 57 , he ran out of money thats why he quit racing kept the engine sold the car,and if he remembers right he thinks it had 13 to 1 compression (not very streetable i know but i had already planned on a rebuild) thanks again guys
If the engine is a '57 then it's a 347, not a 389. As mentioned the earlier Pontiac V8s are great runners, but hard to adapt to later transmissions and bellhousings. Engine mounting changed quite a bit, the earliest engines mounted off the front timing cover. Your best bet would be to find a '65 or later engine, the common Buick/Olds/Pontiac and Cadillac bolt pattern (BOPC) makes transmission swapping easy and cheap. Automatic trannys for these are plentiful, much less expensive than the 'oddball' Chevy transmissions. $800 is waaaaay to much dough for a used-up 347 or 389. If you want a 389 get a '65 or '66 engine. What the hell, step up to a 455, they are the same size and weight as a 389. Pontiacs have the same external block casting dimensions for all their V8s (excluding the later short-deck 265/301 'economy' boat anchors). The heads will all swap onto any block from '55 -'79 if you take intake bolt pattern into consideration. Once you step up to a Pontiac V8 you'll be pleasantly surprised at how easy they are to work on. Very straight-foreward design, lots of features are similar to that of a SBC. Just a few extra design differences that make 'em sort of a 'deluxe' version of a Chevy. The long stroke, long connecting rods and well-designed smallish intake ports allow a Poncho to make torque like a gas-burning Diesel.
Depending on the year, some of those 3 x 2 setups are bringing lots-o-money with the GTO crowd. As for the 389 itself, I like 'em. Lots of low end power.
Get some date codes. 4 charachters, and casting numbers, 7 digits. We'll tell you what you have. $800 is kinda steep for what probably is just a core. Tripower carbs are worth $100 each though. Check if the end carbs ever had chokes. A guy named Mickey Thompson used to run 'em. They do have some potential.
cool thanks guys for all the help when i get a chance to look the engine over i get ya the casting numbers and bring this back up again thanks again fatcaddi
AMEN to that.......as my broke ass sits here eating top ramen ................But I'm gonna drive the heck outta her when she's done ***almost done almost done almost done***. You wanna buy a good rebuildable Pontiac motor on the cheap? Baby I sell you a good rebuilder on the cheap! xxx Brandy ***oh and they make ALL sorts of cool aftermarket parts for these motors........just gots to be willing to pay the $***
Well, I don't really know 389" Pontiac motors that well, but I can tell you that the early ones (pre-'64) have some things that you need to be aware of. As I understand it, and I could be wrong, all early 389" Pontiacs had 10 1/2 to 1 compression ratios!!! That's a damn bunch for today's gas quality. So, you need to think about getting into the innards to change, at least, pistons to calm down that compression. Secondly, and I'm going through this myself right now, you need to have a look at the heads to see what effect the crummy gas has had on the seats. While you say that the engine was a race engine, all the more reason to check the seats. No doubt the exhaust valves will need to have hardened seats installed. Then you need to look closely at the rockers. For some unknown reason to engine builders, Pontiac chose to use rockers that had NO HOLE at the push rod tip! While oil was pumped up the pushrod, its only job was to oil the very tip of the rocker. The rocker ball got its oil from the rocker stud which was provided with an oil passage. The oil came up the passage and, supposedly, oilled the rocker ball. Well, many times things didn't work out as planned and sufficient oil didn't get there. So, the result was an apparent noisy lifter situation. The unsuspecting owner, in an attempt to adjust the lifters cranked down on the rocker nuts and inadvertantly pulled the studs up from the heads. The oil passage would then be completely blocked and not long thereafter the heads are turned to junk and, potentially, the block to junk as well. No oil presents a BIG problem. So be careful about buying the engine until you have a chance to check the internals and their condition. Last, I don't know about the real market value for most things Pontiac, but I'm fairly certain that the triples are worth the asking price alone as long as the carbs are factory or factory replacement carbs. Just my opinion though and only worth what you paid for it.
how's the starter mounted on v8's in '64? they didn't use a hydro in the tempestline, right? i've got a 64 2+2, and i was told the 389's have a block mounted starter. anybody have a definitive answer?
The Tempest used the ST300 2-speed auto. In '64 all of the V8 blocks were cast with provisions for the block mounted starter, though most of the 'big cars' still used the bellhousing mounted starters. The '64 GTO 389 engine was amongst the first to get a block mounted starter. Here's a site with lots of Pontiac block and head ID info: http://wallaceracing.com/
i think they are great motors. i have a 389 out of a 63 catalina. i had to rebuild it, because it leaked oil out of the rope seal. it was rebuilt before i got it, but the guys used the same gaskets, and bearings. it cost me about $1000 to put new bearings, timing chain and gears, lifters, gaskets, a water pump and i think that is about it. we yanked the slim jim tranny out, because it didnt work, and we put a t350 in it. all we needed was an adapter plate to hold the starter and it bolted right up. on ebay there are plenty of speed parts last time i checked. also i would ask axle on here about them. -Joe TDWK
First off, a complete tripower setup would bring $500 or so by itself, so $800 isn't that bad for the motor - if it has any other accessory goodies with it. If it has a stock air cleaner with it (not likely), that alone is worth the $800, or more. If the block has the right codes to be an original tripower engine, it's probably worth the $800 no problem unless it's not rebuildable. Even then a guy might want the block (the Plymouth Fury guys will sleeve a Fury code '57-8 block if they have to). The catch is you need to determine the year, as the intakes change slightly. There's three primary groups - '55-'60, '61-'64, and '64-up. The '59-'60 is slightly different from the older ones also. Going to need date codes off the castings to help verify the year. Second: While this is undoubtedly a 10:1 or better motor, the early V8 compression ratios varied considerably. 1959-1960 for example, manual trans cars were 8.6:1, Hydramatics 10:1, Hi-po engines 10.5:1, and there was an economy 8.0:1 option. This is a very efficient motor - I pulled close to 20 MPG out of a 2-barrel 10:1 motor in a '60 Pontiac, in something smaller I am sure 25 MPG is not impossible, especially if the 4-speed hydro is in good shape and you're not running power steering or air. They have loads of torque and a good useable RPM range. As far as parts go, '59-'60 motors use some unique valvetrain parts and if you change the camshaft to a non-stock grind, you'll need to do a lot more work to get the valvetrain geometry correct. Most of the parts are available from Kanter. Outside of this, the bearings, rods, and crank are the same through 1977. If you have the block checked for core shift, a .055 bore will let you run stock 400 pistons (a lot cheaper than 389 +.030). The HEI off a 301 is a bolt on, and you can change the front cover to a later one if you want to be able to buy a water pump at any parts store. Fuel pumps are the same all the way through, and if the motor doesn't already use a spin-on filter a 301 piece also bolts on. You have a couple of options for motor mounts on these motors, as both the rubber biscuit (59/60 and '69 Gran Prix) and the through-bolt style pretty much everything else used. '59 blocks can be adapted to the older plate mount used in the 5-6-7 cars too. Adapters: If you want to run a different trans, they make an adapter for 61-64 blocks. It may be able to be modified for 59-60 which are slightly different. I believe the 58-back block is still slightly different as well. Hope that's some help. Serial numbers and stamped codes are on the right cylinder bank, may have to scrape it down some to find them. Head code is cast across the middle exhaust ports.
In '64 all of the V8 blocks were cast with provisions for the block mounted starter, though most of the 'big cars' still used the bellhousing mounted starters. so...is the block machined to accept a starter, or does it just have the cast-in "provision"? can i assume that any later (64 gto/65 up all) starter would work?
ok got to see some pics of it today, its complete from airfilter to oil pan minus starter and distributer guts, its got the stock manifolds on it, and the owner said something about the tranny being a 3 speed powerglide, thats not what im saying but thats what he said, and the bellhousing takes like 30 bolts to put it on and the torque converter goes in between the bellhousing and the engine, and the trans shaft goes through the bellhousing in the the tc , its a strange set up,, oh yeah, the engine was sold to this guys father in 64 after the circle track car got wrecked,, it doesnt look to bad, but im gonna have to skip lunch to afford this engine hahaha (broke ass youngin) thanks again guys for all the help i really appreaciate it , and if your ever down in havasu az ill buy ya beer
For 61-63 blocks with no pad, Nunzi sells a mini starter that bolts to the bell. 55-60 you need to handy with a Bridgeport to make an adapter. Doesn't take an engineering degree to make one though.
When I first started using the hamb, I notice you had some 389 head for sale. What's up with the heads you was asking about. Do you still have those heads reply back to me.
The motor on the stand, looks like 421 or 326 motor. The 389 motor has the water outlet faces to the right. The outlet on this motor goes straigt out, there's not too many motor's that is set-up like that.
Any pontiac 3x2 manifold is worth a good amount of money...right? just the bare manifold should be worth more then 800...unless the earlier ones arnt as valueable....iv seen complete tri power setups restored go for 2500+....it was off of a 65 GTO tho...im not sure about the earlier ones
No, the '57-'60 tripower intakes can still be had reasonable. Unless they've got correct carbs on them, I still see them for <$100.
If the carbs are there , 800.00 is a steal for the motor and trans. Hell I wouldn't even think about it. Even if the motors no good, you could part the damn thing out for more
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