flathead identification please

here I have a 21 stud flathead with an unusual intake
it is a ford intake but i dont know the threded hole and the blocked of hole
I cant find no info from it on the net

this is how it looks when I brougt it home


and after installing some parts I have laying around in my museum



I dont know iff the parts are correct

 

the number on the intake


on the engine I found these numbers






and on the heads

 

1937

 

1937 if USA made, which is probably not the case, as it is in the Netherlands. Twin sheave pulley on crank = Truck. Block is same as my 21 stud which is UK made. Heads are typical wartime type with firing order cast in. What does the first part of the engine number say? (the number with 1977 as part of it). Manifold has G29T prefix which is German truck. Generator has single sheave pulley so did not originate from this motor.

It's a bitza.

Mart.

 

the number starts with 15, 19 ore 18 it's verry hard to read

could this be a ford vedette engine ?

the manifold was on the engine when I find it

 

Probably an 18.

USA motors did not carry an engine number.

Most likely UK production, though mine starts with B18.

I think the Vedette used the smaller V8, this one will be 3622cc, 221 ci.

Mart.

 

I can ***ume that it's pre war


thanks

 

Engine is a 1837 style but seems to be British, and they built that type through WWII in Bren carriers and trucks, up to about 1954 in more trucks and Pilots. Heads definitely british, 77 prefix is low comp 21 stud. Manifold is German 1941 239 type truck, doubtless military. Might well be one of those engines that served on both sides in WWII...Germans and British swapped lots of Ford stuff in both directions as the winds of war changed!

 

On that intake: G=Ford of Germany, 1=1941 introduction of that design, 9=239CI engine, T=truck. Note that they retained English language part number nomenclature! Huge round hole I would guess necked down to feed a vac brake booster...these things could have come from all sorts of military vehicles, pumps, generators, etc. and so could have had all sorts of unexpected junk attached.
Both the 1942 revision of the German 239 and the 1937 style English 221 were used in vast quan***ies during the war and both remained in production for nearly 10 years after the war. Long # on your block is doubtless its original serial number starting with 18 indicating 221 Ford.

 

I think the intake manifold is original for the engine
so that makes it a german used ww2 engine for a ww2 truck

am I correct ???

the heads and the distributor I had laying around and they fit on the engine
just to make it look good


thanks

jan

 

Don't think so...I don't think Germany was making 221's or 21 studs. They followed USA Ford pretty closely, with engine updates in '39, 41, and 42 and some mods of their own, and their wartime Ford trucks were mostly built as 1940 Models. They did have some 1932 type BB's and 1935 types in service from earlier builds. I think block is English. I can't see serial adequately...what can you read there and elsewhere on block?

 

The number on the left side is 18-5197166
And on the right side

A2 MS 35
--A78-- 5971CB

These are stamped numbers

Hope this helps

Jan

 

That serial would place complete engine in 1939, after it was out of production use in US, but that would make sense in England where it was produced until '54 or something like that. Ford England got blocks of serial numbers ***igned from same series as USA Ford, so that # could have been used in '39 or even later if they got more numbers than immediately used. In any case it would be consistent with a wartime motor from England. Ford England also built a few regular '39's before converting to war, and according to the parts books those got the English built 1937 type engines. No proof there, but I think it is extremely likely engine was British. No idea where my 1944 German parts list is right now, but I'm pretty sure Germany was producing neither 221's nor 21 stud engines in that period.

 

mart,...Ford did number engines at the engine plant....; The last 4 digits would be added to the VIN (frame) as an engine was dropped into the frame during vehicle asembly. Because engines were taken at random from the supply line, vehicle numbers were usually not consecutive. Most engines found today have been thru a rebuild, and the intake deck machining removed the factory numbers. I have 4 59A engines, with those numbers still intact.

4TTRUK

4TTRUK

 

I am pretty sure this engine is not rebuild
And the numbers are original


It, s getting pretty interesting

 

Lots of interesting info nthere, Bruce, thanks.

As I see it, after what has been said.

Heads: English wartime or Pilot style, 221 cu in 21 stud.
Block: Probably English wartime style, 221 cu in 21stud.
Manifold: From a wartime German 239cu in 24 stud motor.
Generator: Dunno, but not double sheave pulley like the block.

Note the four balancing pads on the crank pulley: don't know if it is significant, but my German 239 cu in motor has the same style pads on t5he water pump pulleys. The motor may be a mix and match of German and English parts.

Mart

 

do you think the intake was put on the engine later or is it factory ?

I didnt know a 24 stud manifold fits a 21 stud engine

this is great info

thanks

jan

 

Germany started making its own flatheads in about 1935 (before that US supplied engines) so they certainly made 221's. I do not know if they ever switched to the 1937-8 type block...I suspect they ran 1936 overtime, but do not know for sure. By 1939 they were building only 24 studs and I believe only 239, at least after war stopped p***enger car production. A LOT of a German Ford was cast with "made in Germany" and/or part numbers with a "G" in the prefix to indicate German version, like your intake.
Teh Ford at War German vaolume shows basically 1940 239 trucks as the main model, with some elderly 1932 and 1935 trucks still in use...both of these models were made longer than in US, the various European Fords did not follow each US update and kept some parts (like 1935 distributor) in production long after US usage, adding their own mods as well.
After about 1935 Ford Germany was no longer dependent on us as they were capable of making the whole shebang...but they had access to USA updated designs up til Pearl Harbor, since they were building 1940-42 trucks.

 

All the externals swap from 221 to 239, alonfg with many internals.

 

just FYI, the Germans put flatties in torpedoes!

 

Lakesters for wet lakes!

I think the generator was another example of earlier part kept in production over seas... no rear vent holes or cooling impellers on pulley!
Both England and Germany kept that 1935 type distributor after it was replaced here. Germans kept it well into WWII, with a factory conversion to external coil...they skipped all the regular Ford changes and eventually went to a vertical Bosch model.

 

are ther still parts for this engine ?
it would be nice to get it running


jan

 

USA 1937 parts will fit it, and bores are thicker than moder engine so a bit of rust is not a problem.

 

thank you all for the reply's

it was verry helpfull



jan

 

If it is a solid block it would be fairly easy to find parts and rebuild stock. With some risk and a good machinist,a '37 type 221 can be built as a 239 or 255...