My 52 Hornet's 308 straight six is in serious need of valve seat work. I'm running on less than a shoe string budget right now, but want to get it up and running as soon as I can... I'm having Hudson withdrawals... Anyway - engine is still in the car with the head off and I have 4 seats that need more than just lapping - they're cracked/eroded. Two are pretty bad, but it's hard to tell really how deep the crack is. I stopped by one cylinder head shop and was treated to a colorful explanation as to why he'll never do any flat heads and he sure as **** won't do anything out of the shop. So I look up the tools needed to actually refinish the seats and the Neway cutters seem to be straight forward and decently priced and something I can do. That's all well and good if I don't need seat inserts, if I need those I probably will need professional help, huh? What I could use is any shop recommendations in the Denver, CO area that might be able to help me, any tips or tricks, and general encouragement are welcome. P. S. I will be checking/replacing valve guides and getting new valves. I will post a picture later, or check out my photo album - there's a picture there. Thanks in advance!
I'll be interested to see what kind of replies you get to this. Judging from old auto shop books, this used to be a fairly standard procedure. The problem is you're going to a lot of trouble to avoid pulling the engine but you may find you needed to pull the engine anyway to correct other problems. You're almost certainly going to need seat inserts. If you can get it done cheaply it's probably worth a shot but I wouldn't spend a huge amount to avoid a day's work of pulling the engine. I'd imagine a machine shop could do a much better job on the work with the engine out of the car and dis***embled and you wouldn't have the issue of trying to keep chips and shavings out of your cylinders like you will on an ***embled engine in the car. I can tell you that the 308's were supposedly prone to cracking from the valve seats into the cylinder area. Part of the reason for the increased block reliefs in 7X and later 1954-55-56 engines (aside from improved flow) was this decreased the propensity for the blocks to crack. Adding block reliefs would be worth considering at some point in the future. Good luck!
As Hugh said, this was fairly standard procedure back in the day. I have a set of Trubor hand cutters that I used to replace & cut a seat in a Ford flathead with no problems. If your seats are badly pitted or worn down, you want to find a set of replacement seats and pop out the old ones and install the new. There's a few techniques for doing this that you can search and learn, but it's typically a backyard job.
Look into the procedures on your seat inserts. I ***ume here htey are OEM like on a Ford FH and not a previous repair. Quite possibly if you can hunt down original replacement ones you can crack out the bad ones and get the new ones in with dry ice shrinking. Aftermarket repair seats would require serious tooling as they would be unlikely to match the OEM socket. Proper perfect valve work of course requires total dis***embly and lot$ of equipment. Really bad seats and really bad valves must be replaced. But...there is a vast middle ground between hopeless and perfect. If parts are not really bad an old-fashioned valve job can get you rolling much better than the damaged stuff is now. Newway is more expensive than trad backyard valve jobbery, much less expensive than the full powered kit. Seat cutting stuff is cheaper than valve cutting stuff, meaning that if valves are pretty bad it may be cheaper to replace than cut if you cannot afford pro work. Some stuff from various old posts on the traditional Okie valve job... Re: Lapping valves....good idea or bad? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The old lapping-in okie valve job has a lot you can say against it, but it is capable of keeping an old engine running for cheap--and it's pretty much the way most valve jobs were done except at the best equipped garages until at least WWII. There is no way of course to narrow and you can't fix any serious defects in the surfaces. You are widening everything, which would be a no-no in any modern valvery but here is actually a necessity--because the part of valve and seat that do the work with engine hot are somewhat away from where they meet cold. I learned valve work from a pre-WWI manual in the early sixties--I had no idea how modern work was done, and it didn't matter because I had no money anyhow. I did pop for about $5 worth of high tech equipment from JC Whitney, including a little giz that held emery paper in a 45 degree cone to clean up the seat. I had no idea how lucky I was to be working on a flathead Ford with hard seats that were basically indestructible... Just be aware of why this isn't the best way to go and do the best with what's available. The problems are: 1. You almost always need guides...but engines do indeed manage to seat wonky valve action. 2. You are widening seats and can't do anything about it...but the engine will learn to cope for a while. 3. You have to work in a wide potential seating area because you know the working seat is going to be a bit...elsewhere and you have to hope you're at least getting that area clkeaned up. I've been planning an article on how Ford valve work useta was...depression survival machine work is fascinating. Oh, you'll need a manual--go get a copy of "The G****s of Wrath" by Steinbeck. Fully covers auto mechanics for those with three tools and zero money! Oh, yes, lapping at the end of a modern valve job is done expressly to see for sure that valve's seat is rounf and concentric, not to move metal. It's a way to see what's going on. You can make it work as is by adjusting out the gap difference and shimming valve spring length difference, BUT you will still have one valve acting and flowing a bit differently than its pals. There is a way between having the whole engine remachined and the simple "Okie valve job" farmer's approach: Simple and cheap machine work on the one problem area. Find your local nut case like me with his own valve tools, or track down a machinist willing to do a bit of simple crutch work for you. Check thickness of odd seat insert--if cut down to level of stock inserts, would there still be considerable metal remaining?? If so, fire up the seat grinder, put in a co**** nothing degree stone, and blast away until a straightedge shows the thing to be level with the other 8 on that side, then go to town with 45 degree stone, checking with an actual valve and lifter to get right valve depth, Cut top&bottom angles and you vave it equalized. While the flathead adapter pilot and grinder are handy, give the other seats a quick buzz--you are still a LONG way from the cost of total remachining, and you will have improved one of the most critical points on a slightly used engine. My first valve job with the JC Whitney tooling was done with 45 degree piloted holders (circa $5.00 in 1968) with emery paper, the olde rubber suction cup and Clover grinding compound, etc. I had no way of narrowing seats, valves were lapped into my new cuts, valves pitted beyond sanity were scrpped. If you can afford new way with multiple angles and stuff you can cut and narrow and start approaching the level of pro work. If valves are mostly re-doable, if the bad seats can be replaced...look around. Stuff like an olde B&D/Snap-on seat cutter set from 1952 can oftn be had cheap and then you are really on your way. The valve cutting machines are MUCH bigger, stranger, more expensive than seat machine and so tossing iffy valves is likely cheaper.
It's getting new rings too, so the pistons will be out. Integral seats, so to be replaced its gotta be machined. I know I'm doing a lot to stay away from pulling the motor - but at this point I just know if I pull the whole thing I'll have no money to finish and it'll sit for who knows how long... My Dads 69 Mach 1 sat for 30 years due to noise in a fresh rebuild, I don't want that to happen. I started this thinking I had the money. That didn't work out. At this point there's still a glimmer of hope I can do some simple work and ****on it up and be able to at least move it under it's own power. Hell, it ran like a champ with those bad valves for quite some time. Cylinders have hardly any wear at all and look great.
Sounds to me like you're doing everything BUT pulling the motor--- you should consider that the extra work in pulling it will pay for itself in the saved labor compared to dis***embly/re***embly with it in place.
My labor is free, and I only complain when it's cold. That Hudson motor comes apart real nice inside the car. One can even change the main bearings with the crank in place. I should also mention - the only room I currently have for an engine... Is right there under the hood.
The agenda is clarifying...questions remain: Are seats actually cracked, or are there just fissures from erosion and burning? Obviously actual cracks would be a serious problem here and could be expected to grow into worse trouble. If not truly cracked, next issue comes down to how much cutting or grinding would be needed to find a clean seat...there are reasonable limits here, and deep cuts are undesirable and would be better handled by an insert.
The shop that advised you is evidently not very competant. Flathead work is common at my shop. Basic stuff. FIRST you need an experienced professional to check the actual condition of the seats, magnaflux will tell a lot. Not a wise move to "repair" a broken/cracked seat with backyard tooling. The cracked seats will most likely have to be replaced. That will require a trip to the shop whether you like it or not. I have the equipment to do it in the car (ancient Sioux seat cutter/installer) but the vehicle has to be on my premises. State law/insurance. Also quicker and better to have block in my seat/guide machine. The Neway cutters will not do the job. They are designed to be used on normal wear conditions. Plus you would need at least three diferent cutters $$$$ I have more than 20 of them..Ain't cheap.
I had a look at the pics in GrimGreaser's photo album. I'd be concerned about those valve seat cracks pointing towards the cylinders. Many cracks can be repaired, but you have to clean it up first to see how far they go.
If there are actual cracks in the block, look into a product called Lock'nS***ch. I have successfully repaired some cracks with their product and on their website it shows repairing cracks through the seat area. Lock'n'S***ch is a process of special treaded screws with corresponding taps. The scews are installed overlapping one aother and then peened over and machined. Done properly, it is almost undetectable.
Yeah, those concern me as well. The holidays and other commitments have stomped all over my work plans. Those pictures are right after popping the head off. Haven't cleaned things up much farther than that. Consensus seems to be I'm up **** Creek, whether I have a paddle is yet to be seen. Now, I'm considering cleaning up the seats as best as I can by hand, getting some used valves to replace the bad ones, put it back together and save the battle for another day, least I can move it under it's own power. So I'm out a head gasket - but know my bores look great, the pistons look good, crank and throws look decent. I do have another Hudson block that's a little rough but might work and I have a Ford 300 six that just needs a cam and some ***embly if things go horribly wrong. Chalk all this up to being impatient and cheap I suppose, or a junkie looking for his next fix...
Just looked at photos.. The left seat is cracked well below the seat area thru the casting and up into the cylinder.. No way this gets repaired in the vehicle and not a budget fix. Even with the Iron s***ch method.
I had a good chuckle reading that. Those good old Joads. ... Looking at that picture of the actual damage, it seems to me that the cylinder on the left may be cracked all the way from the valve seat into the cylinder. Not a very good sign. If this thing ran before, I might advise putting it back together as well as you can and start saving up for the new boat you are going to buy your machinist.
That looks like typical 308 cracking from what I've seen. If you're going to that much trouble, relieving the block would be worth the trouble. Increasing the block reliefs (as on the Hudson 7X race engine) lowers that metal "ridge" between the valve seats and the cylinder and leaves less metal between the hot combustion g***es and the water jacket which goes between the valve ports and the cylinders in that area. I imagine that has a lot to do with reducing the tendency for the blocks to crack. Here's a picture posted by Ramblr last spring that shows what the increased block relief looks like:
Randy Maas suggested that going to the 7X valves and relieveing the block would likely remove my cracks. Eh, got time till it warms up to make my decision. Thanks for all the input guys.
Real cracks. Depression era valve job CANCELED. Engine outtathere, cracks must be stuffed with 100 dollar bills. Start reading the cl***ifieds here and on any Hudson boards...if you stumble over a better engine you'll be way ahead financially. Or go find the old HRM Hornet-Hemi build!
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