Making an old truck front end safe?

iroc409 · Mar 23, 2013

This might be a silly question, but

Ive posted a little about my trucks, but the first one I am going to drag home this summer and start working on is a 1950 International L-112. Unless I can find a good short box (and maybe frame), Im probably going to make this into my work truck and the other truck my hot rod.

I dont really have any desire to change out the original front axle for something newer. Looking at the parts though, they are obviously pretty old. It doesnt have modern ball joints, so Im guessing its harder to get parts for them, and they dont look as substantial as more modern stuff. They are I think all forged parts, so I suppose that makes a big difference.

Are these parts, ***uming rebuilt and not cracked, bent, etc, good enough/safe for the modern highway? Highway speeds are 75MPH in my area, and Im just wondering how these old front end parts hold up. Im looking at a front disc brake conversion, but it re-uses the original hubs. Are the hubs up to task for those speeds, or do they require a lot of maintenance/replacements with the higher speeds?

Basically, if I keep the original front end, am I better off just keeping the truck off the interstate, or are they good to go?

I have thought about using a modified front dummy axle off a Cherokee, because I think they are the same wheel bolt pattern and track width. Using the front and rear would give me a modern rear end, upgraded brakes all the way around, and modern front end without hacking on the original frame. I think its a possible idea, but Im afraid the leaf springs on the front will interfere with the Jeep steering setup. The Jeep uses a cross-steer setup, and the International uses a Toyota like (or Toyota uses an IHC-like) side-steer setup. The Toyotas I am referring to are leaf-sprung 4x4s, whereas the Jeep uses coil springs in front.

mustang6147 · Mar 23, 2013

You can rebuild that whole front end.

Suppliers Like Andy Burnbaum sell kits and parts. Many NAPA's a;so have the stuff available.

Kanter is another supplier that comes to mind......

Heres a link... www.1950sale.com/International-parts/l112/

iroc409 · Mar 23, 2013

Thanks for the link, it's got some good parts there.

I guess I'm not worried about rebuilding the front end, since I should be able to (depending on availability of some of the smaller steering linkage parts), I'm more worried about how they hold up. Hubs/bearings, and additionally at higher speed if you made a sharp swerve (something I'd probably rather not do in something like that), you're subjecting the parts to a lot higher forces and they may not have been designed originally for those higher loads. It would be pretty bad to break something at that speed.

mustang6147 · Mar 23, 2013

I would say, figure out when the Super Highways in your area where runnin, it was sometime in the 50s for most places. It didn't mean everyone had to run out and buy new cars, not to mention metalergy and crinkle points as the vehicles evolved.

My opinion is, that front end will be fine. Rebuilt and tight..... If it even needs it

R Pope · Mar 23, 2013

I beam front ends are hell for tough, and IHC is even better than most. We ran a '54 Binder for years with a 354 Hemi Chrysler engine, and drove the hell out of it, never a problem anywhere. New kingpins and spring bushings and you are good to go.

castirondude · Mar 23, 2013

There are a few things you can do to help improve the handling:
- Lift the back of the front leaf springs 1-2" to give you more caster. This helps the wheels stay straight
- Radial tires provide much improved handling
- Add a steering stabilizer. This is a (special) shock that's mounted on the steering to prevent the truck from suddenly veering to one side when you hit a pothole.

I did these things on my 1928 dodge which also has a 50's I-beam front axle, with good success. Granted we don't have a steep enough downhill here to reach 70+ mph but now it's fine at 55-60 whereas in the beginning it would be not fine over 40.

castirondude · Mar 23, 2013

(the above in addition to a complete rebuild of course)

gimpyshotrods · Mar 23, 2013

Rebuild the stock stuff, and run it.

Or, you can easily equip the Cherokee axle with crossover (inverted-T) steering (and use a modern power steering box, also from the Cherokee donor) using 3/4 or 1-ton components. I have done tons of them, and drove one like that for 200k miles.

Cosmo49 · Mar 23, 2013

'49 Chevy 1/2 ton daily driver only vehicle, 70-75 all day long, stock front end 215 85R16's on stock wheels no tubes, 15 years in this configuration, '56 235 six soon to go with a 261. Go ahead, listen to that mu$tang front end dogma, your truck will open up it's mouth and you can shovel all that cold hard cash and it will only say, "... more, please."

Cosmo49

iroc409 · Mar 23, 2013

Thanks for the info, on all accounts! I think I've heard about re-mounting the axle, but wasn't sure what that was about.

I'll look over the steering some more on the truck, and probably use it if it is still in good shape and rebuild it. It seems like the tie rod is really small in diameter, and the ball joints are actual balls (like little trailer balls, from the do***entation), and not quite like the more modern stuff--they just seem small. I'd like to use the factory stuff, because if I decided to go that route I could add a Toyota steering gear to it and probably have power steering without much work.

I like the idea of the Jeep stuff though, or at least going modern brakes/bearings/steering without having to hack up the truck. The tie rod on the Jeep looks like it's in front of and below the axle, which would be a problem if I mounted it on top of the leaves. The front springs on the truck are sagged, so if I didn't rebuild them I could just mount the axle on top and call it good, but that's probably not the best answer.

iroc409 · Mar 23, 2013

Cosmo49 said: ↑

'49 Chevy 1/2 ton daily driver only vehicle, 70-75 all day long, stock front end 215 85R16's on stock wheels no tubes, 15 years in this configuration, '56 235 six soon to go with a 261. Go ahead, listen to that mu$tang front end dogma, your truck will open up it's mouth and you can shovel all that cold hard cash and it will only say, "... more, please."

Cosmo49
Click to expand...

Heh, no MII... I'd still like to use it as a truck. The only alternative I came up with was the Jeep axle.

gimpyshotrods · Mar 23, 2013

You can always have new leaf springs made, if they are not an off-t******lf item. There should be a truck spring place in Vancoober, if not more than one, if not, close by. Most good shops can make you just about anything.

Those "little balls" are plenty strong. Old or low-tech does not equal weak.

On the other hand, if you converted the Cherokee setup to crossover steering, you could re-taper (which you would need to do anyway) the TRE's from the top of the knuckle, and raise the tie rod about 2-1/2"-3". That would put the tie rod well above the leafs with a spring-under-axle arrangement.

My Cherokee ran this setup for a decade-and-a-half, on the steering setup, anyway.

slammed · Mar 23, 2013

Spending money on really good shocks ($9.99 is not a deal) and maximizing your brake system.

bigdog · Mar 23, 2013

[- Lift the back of the front leaf springs 1-2" to give you more caster. This helps the wheels stay straight

Raising the back of the springs would give less caster, not more. Positive caster is the inclination of the top of the kingpin towards the rear of the vehicle. More positive caster will make the sreering wheel return to center more strongly but at the expense of heavier steering at low speed.

castirondude · Mar 24, 2013

Definitely have the springs taken care of, will (or can) affect handling substantially. If they look to be in good shape, they can be re-arched and add a leaf to compensate for their age (you will need the extra leaf just to make them act like factory springs)
Otherwise have new springs made. Shouldn't be a problem, hardest part is finding a good shop.

Sent from my DROID device using the TJJ mobile app

scrapiron · Mar 24, 2013

Caster on an IH truck axle is adjusted with shims.........

Hackerbilt · Mar 24, 2013

s****iron said: ↑

Caster on an IH truck axle is adjusted with shims.........
Click to expand...

There ya go...tapered shims between the axle and spring most likely.
I can't imagine going thru the h***le of making different shackles to change caster!

Rebuild the front end...add your disc conversion and new wheel bearings/seals...get a wheel alignment.

You're overthinking all this stuff!

Mr48chev · Mar 24, 2013

iroc409 said: ↑

Thanks for the link, it's got some good parts there.

I guess I'm not worried about rebuilding the front end, since I should be able to (depending on availability of some of the smaller steering linkage parts), I'm more worried about how they hold up. Hubs/bearings, and additionally at higher speed if you made a sharp swerve (something I'd probably rather not do in something like that), you're subjecting the parts to a lot higher forces and they may not have been designed originally for those higher loads. It would be pretty bad to break something at that speed.
Click to expand...

Given the choice between a binder front end and a Cherokee (why the hell do guys all the sudden want to put those under rods) front end I'd take the IH front axle any day for strength and durability.
International Harvester Truck Division, They built strong long lasting stuff that was well designed.
I'd rebuild the stock front end with new bushings in the springs, new king pins and replace the steering pieces that need replacing and if you want disk instead of drum brakes find the pieces to do the swap to disk. I sure wouldn't cobble a Jeep front axle under it.

One: the jeep front axle is **** ugly and has a ton of scabs on it you would have to remove before putting spring pads on it.
Two it works as a "straight axle" meaning it has no drop which would lift your binder about four inches above where it sits now in height.
Look at this and figure out how many hours you would spend cutting all the **** you wouldn't use off and then have those ugly 4x4 spindles under the truck.

No need to worry about the original IH hubs if you use quality brand new wheel bearings. Buy Timken Wheel bearings rather then the parts house cheapie brand and no worries there.

porknbeaner · Mar 24, 2013

The Ih front end will last forever and is as safe as it needs to be. you can still by bunder parts from an IH tractor dealer or after market parts are available from specialty suppliers. You can probably get the parts that you need from autozone, they won't be on the shelf as a rule but the zone has an antique parts section in thier computer and you can get most of that stuff from them in a day or so.

62rebel · Mar 24, 2013

i think the "raising the rear of the spring" was intended to mean moving the eye farther from the frame, not actually "raising" the end making it closer (thereby reducing caster)... there's no easy way to say that in just a couple of words!

iroc409 · Mar 24, 2013

OK, I will definitely just rebuild the front end. There's lots of good info in the thread, and I appreciate it. I found a place that does a decent disk brake conversion (instead of something like Speedway's "rotor hats") that uses GM calipers, custom brakets, and I think a one-piece off the shelf rotor. I know most of the motor internals, and the spindles were all forged--obviously meant for hard work.

I admit the Jeep front end would take a lot of work, probably more than I really want to do... but it was about the closest "modern" match. I know they built these trucks robustly for work, so it should be fine. If the rest of the truck is any indication, the front end is probably in decent shape anyway.

I plan on putting some good shocks on it, maybe some Bilsteins if there is an application (there should be, they are fairly plain old shocks). I'd like to keep from cutting up the original sheetmetal/frame as much as possible (preferably not at all).

I was looking at the Jeep for some other donor parts, which is partly what led me down this path. The original motor is pretty well dead, and I can't really afford to rebuild it. A carbureted 4.0L Jeep (using the AMC 258 intake) with the AX-15 transmission is a major option (and kind of "in the family" of sorts). I have to build this truck on a fairly small budget, and rebuilding the original motor would require the majority of it.

gimpyshotrods · Mar 24, 2013

You will need the 258 distributor, too. The 4.0L has an electronic one, with no advance weights, or vacuum advance, just a position sensor. That, and an electronic fuel pump.

iroc409 · Mar 25, 2013

Yeah, as I understand it the AMC 258 accessories will swap over as well, so I can get rid of the serpentine belt also. I thought about getting a whole 258 somewhere, so down the road I can build a 4.7L stroker, but I don't probably really need to (and there are some compression ratio issues with that setup). The truck actually came from the factory with an electric fuel pump in addition to the mechanical, presumably to be used in case of vapor lock (I guess?).

It's about down to the 4.0L or a SBC, if I don't run across a good running IHC 6 that will bolt in. I have about $5000, maybe up to 10 with "good" paint over time, so it has to be done pretty cheap. I've considered a lot of power plants, and there's a few others but these are the main two contenders right now. I'd love to have a V8 in *something*, but it seems like these old trucks should have the I6.

I've also considered the ultimate blasphemy. My dad has an '83 Toyota that is on its last legs. I could steal the steering gear, motor & trans, give it a rebuild and put it in. I could even keep the original rear, as it probably needs it. The 22R outperforms the old 6, but it would be uninspiring. I don't know how easy it is to convert a 4x4 trans though, they probably both need rebuilds, the steering gear may be too crusty, and I'm fairly certain my dad won't get rid of that truck until it actually stops running (it's close, but it's a trooper).

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