sbf/short water pump/pulleys

One would think with all the sbf motors running around someone would have made a reasonably priced short water pump and pulley set by now,I have friends in the machine shop trade so maybe its something I need to look into making. After I get a couple projects done I will look into a shorter water pump to adapt and a set of pulleys that will work and see about duplicating them,the problem with the sbf is they were designed to go in a engine compartment that was designed for a straight six and none of the engineers thought years later they would be installed where they were not designed to go.

 

And some people wonder why SBC are so popular.

 

So you are saying that the small block Chevy water pumps and pulleys are all the same?

 

I installed a '84 302 with AOD in my current build. Converted it from serpentine belt to vee belts, and installed a Holley carb, Must II rack and pwr steering. Plan to paint the billet parts. Be prepared to make bushings, modify brackets, etc. I chose the pulleys/belts by trial and error process. Bought some off eBay, had some, and got some at swap meets . The process would have been a lot easier had I gone with manual steering. Lots of fun.

 

Someone was smoking something wacky when they designed the pulley setups and should had made it run the alternator and water pump first and then have a/c and p/s run off extra pulleys so those could be eliminated if the motor was going into a vehicle with out them. The designers were definately not thinking of us playing with this stuff long after it was produced.

 

I know right? When all this is said and done, Im gonna be spending probably over $400 just replacing a harmonic balancer, timing cover,water pump and purchasing custom machined pulleys that are overpriced..what a friggin PITA!!! Now I know why my comet had a Chevy motor in it when I got it....:mad

Oh and spending $300 plus on that Snow White stuff is insane considering the damn belt rubs on the hose when you install it..(true, its right in their instruction manual..)

 

Yes sir ree. Gm made it easy for the builder to interchange sbc engine parts. I love Chevy engines for that reason. However the sbc is about 4" wider at the outermost dimension at the heads, compared to a 289 or 302 sbf. When space is limited, a sbf engine may be the ticket. Converting a sbf from serpentine to vee belts does have it's stumbling blocks. Pun intended.

 

Stumbling blocks aint the word...


Here are some pics of the motor mount progress, They were tacked in and Im gonna need to drop them about 2.5" yet..Then the bushing will raise it back up about 3/4"..

 

300 dollars is just way too much for pulleys and if I cant come up with a idea to shorten a water pump cheap and easy I might see if I can get someone to reproduce the non p/s crank and water pump pulleys as I have a set.

 

The short damper I spoke of from Speedway is http://www.speedwaymotors.com/S-B-Ford-Harmonic-Balancers-and-Pulley-Spacers,1802.html and comes in 28oz & 50 oz,you don't want billet pulleys? here is a cheaper option http://www.ebay.com/itm/V8-FORD-CHR...ies&vxp=mtr&hash=item3cc09ce839#ht_3220wt_954 about a 1/3 of the price of billet here's the water pump http://www.autozone.com/autozone/pa...?counter=1&itemIdentifier=72037_193802_0_4548 or go cheap the rebuilt with core is $24.99.About 1/2 of $300 for those on a budget.As for SBC's being cheaper they also had short and long pumps and cause the same problems as well as the change in alternator locations to deal with,SBC's also made a lot more pulley changes so you always need to get them in matched sets or be very damn lucky.If you take a look at the second to the last picture DajerseyRat posted you see the Ford long pump below you will see the Ford 1965-69 pump and how much shorter it is.All three pictures are 54' Ford 302 installs.

 

I thought about the earlier pump and pulleys when I installed the 351 in my 55 sunliner but ended up having 6 cylinder radiator brackets installed on a V8 radiator to move it forward,using the earlier pump would have required changing the outlet on the radiator and I did not have the six radiator at that time. I will have a extra 302 to play with soon and will come up with a cheap and easy solution to the 70 and newer pump when I get to it.

 

Not to mention 7" or 8" balancer , driver side timing mark or behind the water pump. Small and large bolt pattern fan hub..................yep , all them small block chevys are same

 

Ok, now that i did the old 69 water pump with the passenger side inlet, which timing pointer do I use now??

 

We're in the exact same boat my friend. I'm curious as well.

Maybe I'll sell my SBF & go with something else, like a Hemi. Might be cheaper & easier in the long run

 

I used the Explorer pump on the 32 Vicky I'm building, worked out well and I gained a ton of room compared to the stock early style pump. Down side I had to make all the brackets and it is a serpintene belt but then I wasn't worried about "traditional" look on this car, kinda street roddy anyway.

 

You will need a 69 and earlier pointer and balancer and if you have the 81 and up motor you will have to remark the balancer.

 

OMG what a Pain in the A$$ this Ford crap is..

 

i used a 69' pump on 78' 302 and had the same problem. Days and days of playing with pullys. I also made a new alternator mount to run a GM 3 wire.

Heres some pics. I cut down a water pump pully on my lathe and then trued it up for welding.

 

This is not a problem using the Professional Products balancer I referred to in my original post(post #5 in this thread),this balancer has all three of the timing marks Ford used engraved into it,you can use any pointer you want.If a lot of you would go back and read it,all the information you need is right there in black and white and your SBF headaches will be over.

 

I became an expert in installing a short waterpump on a sbf and I never intended for that to happen. My job was complicated by the fact I had to get the proper timing cover from Jegs, and the shortened waterpump and Ford Racing damper from Summit. But no one carried the pulleys because Ford Racing had discontinued them.

March Pulleys was ZERO help on the phone and actually pretty rude, so I called Zoops and found an upper and lower pulley that would fit but I had to use a Ford Racing spacer on the damper to make them line up. I finally got it put together and thought I had it licked, but I blew the first water pump within a week of putting it on. I airfreighted another one in because we were leaving for Daytona and got it installed.

I drove the car to Daytona (250 miles) and that night when I left for dinner I got a face full of antifreeze........the second water pump had blown the gasket out of the backside. Spent the next day looking for a new pump and finally had to buy some gasket paper and make my own. The car ran ok for the next two days but as we were leaving for home I heard an unGodly rattle from the engine and shut it down. Had to rent a U Haul truck and trailer to get the car home.

When I tore it down I found that the diffuser plate inside the water pump had eaten itself up. After a lot of research I found out that the Zoops pulleys were the wrong sizes and I was overdriving the water pump by maybe 50%, so at 3000 rpms the water pump was going almost 5000 rpms.

I ordered a new pump and this time I found a company by the name of Runne Rite, and they were the people who originally made the pulleys for Ford Racing. I bought a set and have had no problems since installing them. The crank pulley is smaller than the water pump pulley so it spins at the right speed and the car also now runs cooler.

Between the new water pump, timing cover, damper, pulleys, etc I have about $ 1000 in the setup, but I did pick up about an inch and a half of clearance and can now run a bigger electric fan than I ever could fit in the car before.

Don

Here are the two pulley sets side by side. The wrong ones are on the left and the correct ones from Runne Rite are on the right. They photograph black but are polished aluminum.



This is what I found when I tore the blown water pump apart. That plate is supposed to be flat and attached with weld to the vanes.

 

Thanks Don I have a friend looking for the same thing.

 

I have the whole pulley issue figured out, I used a 69 water pump and ordered the proper pulleys and alternator bracket from CFV Racing.








My issue now is simply the OEM timing pointer would not be visible with the 69 water pump. I need to find one that mounts on the other side.

 

Here is the newest hurdle (besides the timing pointer issue...) I went to install my alternator, now keep in mind i purchased all CFV Racing pulleys and alternator bracket to make it easy on me. Now my alternator will not mount properly...I ordered a Tuff Stuff 140 AMP Alternator and with the CFV racing bracket, the terminal on the rear winds up on the inside of the alternator and prevents the alternator from rotating inward enough to mount it properly. The terminals hit the heads before you can rotate it enough towards the water pump for mounting..WTF?? Is the 140 amp alternator thicker than a standard 100 amp??Or are my SVO aluminum heads the issue?? Are the terminal sides interchangeable? Cause if the terminal was on the opposite side, all would be well.. Now I know why i have always been a chevy guy..

 

I would like to let you all know I am a complete idiot =-) All that had to be done was the 4 bolts holding the alternator housing together had to be removed and the housing rotated 180 degrees..Problem solved.

So for clearance issues this is all you need:
1969 Ford mustang Water pump with passenger side inlet
CFV racing 3 pulley set up (let them know what your runnign so you get the right ones)
CFV racing Alternator bracket...

You might or might not need a spacer behind the crank pulley, I did not and I have the standard 4 bolt 50oz damper that comes on a GT40 crate motor from Ford racing.

They also have other set ups for running A/C or power steering..

 

i went the expensive route right from the git go and bought the sno white conversion , had to have the extra clearance , excelent kit came w all the pulleys and alt mount , uses an opel gt water pump which is adapted to a plate all in their kit

 

I went with the March serpentine system. Not traditional but I was sick of spitting belts with the 425 hp I was making.

 

Then there is this "non-traditional fix" http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/cooling-articles/482048-junkyard-upgrade-dual-electric-fans.html You will notice in the pictures that the Ford long nosed pump (1970 and up) will center between the two fans,if you live out west where 100 degree plus days are common this is not a bad idea and it's not hard on the budget.

 

What's that alternator from Jeff?
TP

 

Have been following this thread very closely since I have been running into the same problem everyone else here has.
Picked up a 95 302 H.O motor and converted it to carb and v belt to put in my 63 fairlane. Now I'm building this for my son who is serving over in the "sandbox" and would like to get the darn thing done for him!
Ordered the 50 oz balancer and $300 worth of March pulleys from Summit before they finally admitted that non would work! Morons...
The reverse rotation pump and the lack of pulley alignment is whats stopping this build. I've been a ford guy all my life and this ones leaving me scratching my head.
After an extensive search online I've heard a 1990 crown vic timing cover and standard rotation pump will work. Any ideas if that cover pump combo will work on a 95 block? Bout as tired as every one else here with these issues!

 

The Explorer setup is by far the best (in terms of compactness, weight, reliability, noise/vibration reduction, etc.) front-end accessory drive ever done for the SBF, it will also fit the 351W (it's pretty much one big boomerang-shaped AL casting that bolts to the block.)

Serpentine belt, all the bits (front cover, water pump, power steering pump/reservoir, pulleys, damper, etc.) are unique to the application, it's 50 oz/in but check the ur-Bronco 351 guys IIRC for 28oz dampers for this combination. Will not accept a mechanical fuel pump.

But it's definitely not traditional-looking.