Juice brakes rear wheel cylinder direction

LSGUN · May 4, 2013

That's a sweet little rig.

Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

And the 4 banger!!

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Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

Again:

John Evans, I am looking for the "correct" way, but also the overall best way for the application as well. Remember this is a traditional hot rod not an actual 1948 Ford so a lot of things are different here. I simply have seen it done both ways with mixed opinions. The most important thing here for me really is that I don't have a big safety issue. 32 four banger and a light overall truck. This is what I found thru hours of head scratching and multiple retrys to work best, but for the possible issue of small wheel cylinder forward. As for the e brake, I haven't got there yet, but I am ***uming the slight tilt will not screw things up as guys of done this a million times one way or another. I started my venture going by the suggestion of method on Les Andrews book. Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad

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Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

I also have heard of later fords having the large end facing back. As I said, I have seen it done both ways and am just seeking knowledge, and trying to build it as best I can. If junk yard kid has it backwards and can lock em up, it musta worked for him, no ? Lol I'm so mixed up now.Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad

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Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

I did get them to stop rubbing and binding, but had to take more than the 1/8 most took from the backing and drum. And I used two .010 shims on each side. All seems good although with all cranked tight, I can move the drum in and put ever so slightly, like minute, as in 1/32. Is that common or?Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad

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Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

KANE MCAFFER said: ↑

I did get them to stop rubbing and binding, but had to take more than the 1/8 most took from the backing and drum. And I used two .010 shims on each side. All seems good although with all cranked tight, I can move the drum in and put ever so slightly, like minute, as in 1/32. Is that common or?

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Click to expand...

Anybody on the slight movement? I have figured out the slight play is in the axles. Normal on model a axles?

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spooler41 · May 4, 2013

Kane, there are two different part numbers for the right and left wheel cylinders.
Brake line orientation should be the same on both sides.

.....................Jack

MATACONCEPTS · May 4, 2013

Finally some ****en pictures.

**** mount the backing plates upside down with the cylinders right side up.

It looks you could do some good machining in your garage there. Throw all that **** out, you got a Model A. It's an old car, one of the oldest at that. There's big tolerances & play, the Model A ch***is is very forgiving. Get out of your garage & go for a drive.

Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

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Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

I'm also dealing with the shock ball as I'm using original shocks

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Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

Isn't the e brake a flexible cable and will just conform to the slight alteration?

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Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

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toolz1175 · May 4, 2013

I recently pulled the drums on my '40 to check the brakes. Car has been in storage since 1964. The brake shoes are due for replacement as the front shoes are nearly to the rivets. The rear shoes (on each axle) look good yet. That shows me that too much force is being applied to the lead shoe, and not enough to the trailing shoe. I will probably reverse the wheel cylinders when I replace them to even out the wear. It won't be the factory way, but it makes more sense to me. Since this car is unaltered, it shows accurately how the shoes wear under normal use.

Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

toolz1175 said: ↑

I recently pulled the drums on my '40 to check the brakes. Car has been in storage since 1964. The brake shoes are due for replacement as the front shoes are nearly to the rivets. The rear shoes (on each axle) look good yet. That shows me that too much force is being applied to the lead shoe, and not enough to the trailing shoe. I will probably reverse the wheel cylinders when I replace them to even out the wear. It won't be the factory way, but it makes more sense to me. Since this car is unaltered, it shows accurately how the shoes wear under normal use.
Click to expand...

Hmmm interesting.

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55willys · May 4, 2013

toolz1175 said: ↑

I recently pulled the drums on my '40 to check the brakes. Car has been in storage since 1964. The brake shoes are due for replacement as the front shoes are nearly to the rivets. The rear shoes (on each axle) look good yet. That shows me that too much force is being applied to the lead shoe, and not enough to the trailing shoe. I will probably reverse the wheel cylinders when I replace them to even out the wear. It won't be the factory way, but it makes more sense to me. Since this car is unaltered, it shows accurately how the shoes wear under normal use.
Click to expand...

Forward or rearward on the big side of the wheel cylinder?

JohnEvans · May 4, 2013

You will see a bit of end play in the axle from the clearance between the spider gears and the gear on the axle end and the clearance between the carrier and back side ofthe axle gear. Like I said I prefer the parts the right way but yes your way will work. One thing if your shoes have a long and short lining put the long lining with the larger WC bore. Lots of relined shoes sold nowadays for early Ford have equal lining on both shoes.

JohnEvans · May 4, 2013

toolz1175 said: ↑

I recently pulled the drums on my '40 to check the brakes. Car has been in storage since 1964. The brake shoes are due for replacement as the front shoes are nearly to the rivets. The rear shoes (on each axle) look good yet. That shows me that too much force is being applied to the lead shoe, and not enough to the trailing shoe. I will probably reverse the wheel cylinders when I replace them to even out the wear. It won't be the factory way, but it makes more sense to me. Since this car is unaltered, it shows accurately how the shoes wear under normal use.
Click to expand...

A question here .
do both shoes have equal lenght lining? if not the longer lining goes to fromt of car and larger bore of the WC. This what you have? Lots of early Ford Lochead systems were mis-***embled even in the 50s-60s with short lining to the front Bendix style.

V8 Bob · May 4, 2013

toolz1175 said: ↑

I recently pulled the drums on my '40 to check the brakes. Car has been in storage since 1964. The brake shoes are due for replacement as the front shoes are nearly to the rivets. The rear shoes (on each axle) look good yet. That shows me that too much force is being applied to the lead shoe, and not enough to the trailing shoe. I will probably reverse the wheel cylinders when I replace them to even out the wear. It won't be the factory way, but it makes more sense to me. Since this car is unaltered, it shows accurately how the shoes wear under normal use.
Click to expand...

What the shoe wear shows you means very little, as you don't know the history of your '40, like type of lining material used, driving habits, hills v.s. flat miles, etc. Were the front primary linings longer than the rears?
Fact is, the primary forward shoe of the Lockheed non servo brake does most of the forward braking, and by switching the wheel cylinders so the smaller secondary piston operates the forward shoe will do nothing except reduce the overall braking capability of the already minimal braking of your '40. Really dumb idea. The "factory way" was performed for a good reason, and makes common sense.

Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

V8 Bob said: ↑

What the shoe wear shows you means very little, as you don't know the history of your '40, like type of lining material used, driving habits, hills v.s. flat miles, etc. Fact is, the primary forward shoe of the Lockheed non servo brake does most of the forward braking, and by switching the wheel cylinders so the smaller secondary piston operates the forward shoe will do nothing except reduce the overall braking capability of the already minimal braking of your '40. Really dumb idea. The "factory way" was performed for a good reason, and makes common sense.
Click to expand...

I agree with this when all stock and on the actual '40 ford. As far as my hot rod, I think I'm gonna be ok. We will see. If not, I've done **** twice more than once in my life. Haha

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19Fordy · May 4, 2013

toolz1175 said: ↑

I recently pulled the drums on my '40 to check the brakes. Car has been in storage since 1964. The brake shoes are due for replacement as the front shoes are nearly to the rivets. The rear shoes (on each axle) look good yet. That shows me that too much force is being applied to the lead shoe, and not enough to the trailing shoe. I will probably reverse the wheel cylinders when I replace them to even out the wear. It won't be the factory way, but it makes more sense to me. Since this car is unaltered, it shows accurately how the shoes wear under normal use.
Click to expand...

Pay attention to what v8Bob said about how the Lockheed braking system is meant to operate. Your idea about switching shoes is neither safe nor sound or correct. Big mistake! Do some research for safety sake.

toolz1175 · May 4, 2013

V8 Bob said: ↑

What the shoe wear shows you means very little, as you don't know the history of your '40, like type of lining material used, driving habits, hills v.s. flat miles, etc. Were the front primary linings longer than the rears?
Fact is, the primary forward shoe of the Lockheed non servo brake does most of the forward braking, and by switching the wheel cylinders so the smaller secondary piston operates the forward shoe will do nothing except reduce the overall braking capability of the already minimal braking of your '40. Really dumb idea. The "factory way" was performed for a good reason, and makes common sense.
Click to expand...

It makes no common sense at all to have one shoe do nearly all the braking. Juice brakes were in their infancy in 1940, and I'm not so sure they got it right. I just looked at my brakes again, and the long front shoe is almost gone, but the back shoes are at 75% or more. And by the way, I do know the history of this car, as I bought it from the man who owned it since 1956. Attempting to make the shoes apply even pressure (and even wear) makes perfect sense to me, and that's most likely what I will do.

toolz1175 · May 4, 2013

19Fordy said: ↑

Pay attention to what v8Bob said about how the Lockheed braking system is meant to operate. Your idea about switching shoes is neither safe nor sound or correct. Big mistake! Do some research for safety sake.
Click to expand...

Read my post again- not switching the shoes.

toolz1175 · May 4, 2013

55willys said: ↑

Forward or rearward on the big side of the wheel cylinder?
Click to expand...

It's ***embled original, with the long shoe and big side of the cylinder to the front.

V8 Bob · May 4, 2013

toolz1175 said: ↑

It makes no common sense at all to have one shoe do nearly all the braking. Juice brakes were in their infancy in 1940, and I'm not so sure they got it right. I just looked at my brakes again, and the long front shoe is almost gone, but the back shoes are at 75% or more. And by the way, I do know the history of this car, as I bought it from the man who owned it since 1956. Attempting to make the shoes apply even pressure (and even wear) makes perfect sense to me, and that's most likely what I will do.
Click to expand...


The early hydraulic brakes were not very efficient, and are why they were replaced by better brakes as time went on. With Ford, the Bendix Duo-Servo design in the '40s eventually replaced the Lockheed. But even with this still modern and used design, where the secondary rear shoe does most of the forward braking, you're not always going to have even primary and secondary lining wear.
Your insistence on making a non-servo Lockheed brake have equal shoe wear by reducing the primary shoe effectiveness is dangerous, and dumb, as you obviously don't understand brake design and operation. Worse yet, you're "thinking" of doing this b***-backwards engineering on a precious '40 Ford.

toolz1175 · May 4, 2013

V8 Bob said: ↑

The early hydraulic brakes were not very efficient, and are why they were replaced by better brakes as time went on. With Ford, the Bendix Duo-Servo design in the '40s eventually replaced the Lockheed. But even with this still modern and used design, where the secondary rear shoe does most of the forward braking, you're not always going to have even primary and secondary lining wear.
Your insistence on making a non-servo Lockheed brake have equal shoe wear by reducing the primary shoe effectiveness is dangerous, and dumb, as you obviously don't understand brake design and operation. Worse yet, you're "thinking" of doing this b***-backwards engineering on a precious '40 Ford.
Click to expand...

Bob- I'm growing a bit tired of you calling me dumb. I have a degree in Engineering, hold federal Airframe and Powerplant licenses, and hold ASE master auto and heavy truck certificates. Understanding brake design is not a problem. If I wish to build my car the way I want, I believe I have the intelligence and experience to do it, without your approval.

Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

Easy boys.......
It's all supposed to be fun right? Lets not get into a ******* match. Lol I have a degree in sleeping in and growing a stellar mustache.

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Working Class Zero · May 4, 2013

I do appreciate a good argument though, and even more I appreciate the input and help. Thanks guys.

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RICH B · May 4, 2013

toolz1175 said: ↑

I have a degree in Engineering, hold federal Airframe and Powerplant licenses, and hold ASE master auto and heavy truck certificates. Understanding brake design is not a problem. If I wish to build my car the way I want, I believe I have the intelligence and experience to do it, without your approval.
Click to expand...

Good, then you should have the knowledge to re-examine your idea of switching the wheel cylinders around and see that you will actually be loosing a good percentage of braking power; besides that the hoses will aim forward and look funny.

toolz1175 · May 4, 2013

RICH B said: ↑

Good, then you should have the knowledge to re-examine your idea of switching the wheel cylinders around and see that you will actually be loosing a good percentage of braking power; besides that the hoses will aim forward and look funny.
Click to expand...

Don't think I will see much loss in braking power, as the force on the rear shoe will increase along with decreasing the force on the front shoe. I will also compensate for any loss by sizing the master cylinder for more pressure, as I'm switching to a dual cylinder anyway.

Motomike43 · May 5, 2013

Depends if your drum brakes are "Leading" or "Trailing" style brakes. if you clocked the backing plate i would be more worried about the Bleeder being in a good position to get all the air out. If its not the center / top anymore your going to trap air in the higher side of the cylinder. you may have major issues getting a good pedal.

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