cadillac/studebaker V8 similarities?

Why would anyone want more stroke in an engine that has such crummy intake ports ?

I've even ported them to flow over 212cfm at .500" valve lift (134 stock), and still would rather try to unshrold the valves with a larger bore thAn a longer stroke. Stock..the chambers overlap the cylinder bores. I believe it takes a .090" overbore to fully clear the combustion chamber walls.

A coupa guys have had their Stude cranks welded for longer strokes and had reasonable luck.
But again, a lot of money and time for questionable results (value wise).

Mike

 

Areopagitica posted
Chevrolet had an incrementally smaller V8 Kettering design underway that was deemed too costly.
This is the 1st time I have seen someone else say what I had seen in a book which I cant find. The book even had a PIC of this eng. I would like to see that data again but can never find it.
What I had read was that while the Caddy, 331 cu in, Olds, 303 cu in, a 3rd engine in the 2** cu in range for Chevy was being worked on which was trashed for the SB CHEVY that came out in 1955.
Areopagitica can you tell me where is that data?

 

I'd really like to see that pic also. What did it resemble?

 

Pic was not super clear but like the 49 caddy eng is sort of like the 49 olds eng this was sort of like them but I think the area around the bellhousing was not as deep as the caddy or olds where part of bell is part of the block. It was on a test stand with people by it? I am 65 and I saw this many many years ago. At the time I WAS rich, had a 54 chevy, have a tee shirt with a 54 chevy nomad on it done by a tee shirt dealer at a auto show which some said build it and was looking if the stude eng was that chevy eng.

 

I found this after a days search.
1) The smallblock was introduced for the 1955 model year as a 265ci engine that cranked out 162 gross hp in cars and 155 gross hp in light trucks. What made it special was its compact size and light weight. This came about as GM developed some radical new casting methods. The daddy of the smallblock was a guy named Ed Cole. He took over Chevy’s V8 project in 1952 and immediately s****ped a project to develop a 231ci V8 based on a Cadillac design

2)Cole went to Chevrolet in 1952 from Cadillac, where he had supervised the design of an overhead-valve V-8. Work was already underway on a similar V-8 at Chevrolet when he arrived. It was a thoroughly conventional, small-displacement engine design – and Cole hated it at first sight. He instructed his engineers to design an engine that was lightweight, compact and powerful.

3)But it isn't so well known that:
As compe***ors trumpeted their V-8s in the early 1950s and GM's top br*** fretted, Chevrolet's engine of choice for its next new car remained the ancient "stove bolt six." Chevy finally went to work on a scaled-down version of the 4-year-old Cadillac V-8, which Ed Cole promptly broomed when he became chief engineer in May 1952.

 

thanks for the search. I never knew about that motor. "scaled down Cad at 231 CI"

 

I still have not found the book, with the picture of the engine. I can not be the only one who had one? I retired from GM and they gave us a book one year, maybe it was in there?

 

Many years ago I read a article about E.J Potter and the ****** Mary {I think} or some other chevy powered M.C with the stude crank... The Studebaker made some tough engines, 259 and 289 I used them in my Figure 8 cars for a couple of years.

 

Four more from the net.

4)To alter Chevrolet's time-honored image from builder of mundane people-movers to performance-car spe******t, Cole knew he would need a V-8 engine. His predecessor, Ed Kelley, had toyed with the V-6 and a 231 cubic-inch V-8, both of which Cole rejected.

5)Harry Barr goes on to say that when he got there, chief engineer Ed Kelley had already designed a prototype that was 231 CI, but that engine was not a short-stroke, large bore design, and it was s****ped in favor of a new design that would allow the engine to grow and be modified as manufacturing techniques were refined in the future.

6)So there you are, one fine spring day in May 1952, designing the first new Chevrolet V-8 since 1919. It's a nice solid design. Ed "Crankshaft" Kelley established the basic layout by shrinking down the famous 1949 Cadillac V-8 to 231 cubic inches.

7)In 1952, GM's Engineering Policy Committee, swearing to revamp Chevrolet, brought Cole over from Cadillac to replace Edward Kelley as chief engineer. Cole almost immediately found himself with an extremely tight deadline--15 weeks--for the design of a new engine. Though Kelley had previously proposed a 231-cu.in. V-8, Cole started almost from scratch, enlisting the help of Kelley and Harry Barr, who served as Cole's ***istant chief engineer at Cadillac.

 

I am happy and sad at the same time. I got a super high res and contrast 8"x10" picture of the engine but to get it I also had to accept a PERSONAL USE ONLY slip. (231 V8)
The picture is held together with tape but much much detail can be seen. It is on a ENG. stand and its like you are standing just a little to the right of the front.
I just got it and want to compare to caddy and chevy pictures because it looks like parts of both.
Can I get PICs of the caddy eng from the same angle? This one is held on all four corners on the eng stand and there is no extension on the back of the eng which is part of the bell on olds and caddy. On front lower face of block two bolts on angle plates hold both sides of the front.
The intake looks like caddy with a valley cover but the valve covers look like chevy.
ALL FOR NOW

 

I just got an early 331 in today for a hambers car. It's still in plastic but i hope to have it hanging from a hoist by tommorrow night. But it's got a later 50s Eldorado tripower intake on it

 

My wrap up.
Cole and Barr at Caddy, 331 1949 engine.
Stude with Caddy DNA, 232 1951 engine.
Kelly at Chevy with Caddy DNA, 231 1952 engine.
Cole and Barr go to Chevy in 1952 for small block 265 engine.
They came from Caddy but no DNA from Caddy in SB?
Stude 232 crank put into early SB 283 to make a 342 but no DNA, right!

 

I bought the book CHEVROLET 1955 CREATING the ORIGINAL by Michael Lamm.
It has the complete story and pictures about the caddy based 231 cube chevy and how it went to the COLE 265 cube SB chevy. There is a copy rite on the book so can I show the PICs of the 231?

 

Bob Dwyer since p***ed owner of Precision Auto Machine in Ft Lauderdale Fl & stock eliminator Studebaker racer & builder of the Crockagator told me that early Studes could be bored way out & use stock caddy pistons. He also ran a SS blower Lark that used a Chevy Edelbrock Victor intake with his home made epoxy plate adaptors. 11.2's out of a blower Lark in the 70s was really stout but Bob was known to push the rule book right off the table, great guy, I really miss him

 

Copyright pics and stories can be quoted or shown NOT for profit in other words, not sold for money. You can resell the original but not copy and sell or reprint and sell without permission. But you can show parts of a book, such as a picture or quote a few paragraphs.

 

This is interesting so just bought the book!!

 

Hi ... Had a Hot Rod or Rod & Custom Magazine from the 60's which had an article changing a Studebaker 289 crank into a Ford Y block....used the Stude crank and rods and there was a lot metal removed from the Y block to clear rod bolts...was about 370 cube......Havent got that issue magazine anymore so I cant look it up to verifier who done the engine build..............

 

1) The chevy 231 block in the book looks like the caddy without that large bellhousing area on the back that olds and caddy had from 1949. When did caddy drop that bell off the rear of the engine? (55) The 231 chevy was from 1952.
2) At the top of the bore in the block looks like valve reliefs? Maybe the caddy heads fit the block but because of smaller bore? Not enough head bolts.
3) Only 10 head bolts? Bare block.

 

New pic

 

How that would have changed history!!

 

Dredged up this older post, very interesting. Most folks know that in those days to get Cadillac power in a Studebaker was to build a Studillac, which I am doing now.

 

They were both designed by the same design firm.

The intakes are not an exact match but close enough for govt. work. I don't know about internals on them, pretty sure that the exhaust manifolds swap. I do know that the Caddy is nearly a bolt in for the caddy stude engine swap. Studillacs were pretty popular way back when.

 

Thanks for that.

 

Please state your sources.
The Caddy and Stude are similar in looks only.
The Caddy intake can be *******ized to fit on a Stude, but the port alignment is awful and unless you butcher both the head and the intake, all you will do is have a mediocre intake setup.

 

Which the one that we agree on that the intakes were not an exact match, the same designer, or that Studillacs were popular and the engine is nearly a bolt in.

I guess the burden of proof is on you my friend prove me wrong.

While you are busy proving me wrong consider Kettering Design.

 

I can personally attest to the Intake not being very close at all, I ran a Caddy 3X2 for a little while on my Stude 289. The intake sits on the head just fine but when I tried to drill and counter sink the bolt holes I ran clean into two intake runners. The ports do not line up very well at all, I ran it for a little while because it looked cool, but not the best performance. Now I have a STU-V.

I don't think the Exhaust is very close other than they both have a Siamese center port. No other parts I have found are interchangeable.

 

Please state your sources about Studebaker V8 engines and Cadillac V8 engines using the same designer.

 

Find it yourself I did.

Here is the deal you challenged me, I don't have to prove what I know to be true and this is knowledge that I have had since way before the internet. If you think I am wrong than it is up to you to prove it.

I gave you a hint which is more then I do for most people. Here is another tid bit, the Stude mill was in the works prior to the Caddy but didn't hit the dyno room until '50.

 

Again,
Please state your source for your statement about Studebaker V8 and Cadillac V8 having the same designer.

Kettering designed the basic V8 architecture for a lot of different manufacturers V8 engines.
I would love to hear about a verified connection between Cadillac and Studebaker V8 engines.

And the word 'Studillac' is often misused for the popular Cadillac engine into a Studebaker.
Same with Fordillac.
But the true Studillac has a direct connection with Bill Frick. Some interesting history there.

Burden of proof request still stands...my friend.

 

I dropped you a note unless you really have something to ad we should stop before the thread gets locked for drama.