My letter to R&C

It seems lately, that I've gotten back some of the rebel at***ude that I had in my youth. When something gets tossed out that I don't agree with, I'm sending off an email to express my point of view. Well, when I got this months issue of Rod & Custom and read the editorial, I had to send them an email.

The editorial was basically dealing with the topic of, are hot rodders ruining old cars my modifying them. It was a good read, but what got in my gears was towards the end, when Mr. Fortier said, in a nut shell, that a "kit car" is simply bolted together to resemble a hot rod. Yea, I guess he caught me in the right frame of mind, so I had to get an email out. Here it is in it's entirety, as I sent it. Everyone's got an opinion on gl*** cars or kits and I respect that. This letter is just my opinion on the topic. I hope this thread doesn't get into a ******* contest, as I didn't plan it that way. I just wanted to show my letter to R&C and express my opinion on "kit cars". A civil discussion would be nice. If this gets deleted, well, at least a few will get to read it. HURRY!


Mr. Fortier,

I'm sure you expected it, when you used the words "kit car" in your editorial and I'm sure this is not the only email you'll receive. While neither I or anyone else can totally sway popular belief or fiction, I do try to educate, when I can. The name "kit car" is never going to go away, but calling it "simple" and making it sound easy should be explained.

First, while a full kit comes with most parts to complete a vehicle, there's still a lot of work to be done. Not everything, in my experience, has ever just "bolted together". There are pieces that have to be modified to fit and if the builder decides to make the build his own, he has to plan and modify accordingly. The kit doesn't usually tell you how to do this, it comes from learned knowledge.

Second, if we're going to toss around the word "simply" to describe how a build comes together, then doesn't that word apply to ALL cars being built? What car doesn't use bolts that simply hold separate pieces together? None I can think of. The word "simply" implies that if you left a 5 year old in a room with a kit long enough, he'd roll out a car in a few days. Kit's don't "simply" bolt together. There's still a lot of planning and consideration as to where parts go, to be considered.

Third, for some reason, when a lot of people find out a cars body is fibergl***, that word "kit" gets tossed out and then we get to the first thing I mentioned. Rare is the fibergl*** body that doesn't need some kind of prep or work before it's called done. A fibergl*** body requires sanding, filing, primer and a finish coat, just like a steel car. So, why the stigma? Why is using a fibergl*** body considered cheating? Why is the "kit" thought of as the easy way out? Is it because the fibergl*** body didn't have to be hunted down in salvage or junk yards? Is it because the guy who used fibergl*** didn't spend crazy amounts of time and fuel to drive the country looking for his project? Well, others and myself had to do all those things to get our projects done.

Tossing around the word "simply", when discussing a kit car, gives the average Looky Lou the idea that he can throw one together with no idea of how a vehicle works. Well, my answer to that is, "If it's so simple, wouldn't there be a hot rod in every garage or driveway?"

Finally, old car guys love to toss around the word "soul", when describing a steel car and down grading a gl*** car. True, the steel car was once pounded on in some factory by a man or woman who was doing so to feed and house their family. Their blood, sweat and tears are infused into that cold steel. Giving it a "life", so to speak. That's great and also up to debate, depending on your definition of what a soul is. But, doesn't the man or woman at a fibergl*** manufacturing plant work there to feed and house their family? Are their blood, sweat and tears cheapened because they are working with molds instead of presses. I doubt it.

My hot rod is a T Bucket. I always loved them and it was my choice, when I decided to get involved in this hobby. The ch***is and some of it's components were purchased from Total Performance. Other items were gathered from other companies and junkyards. The body is fibergl*** that I purchased from a friend. I bolted my project together just like the guy with a metal car. I had to hunt things down. I had to figure out how the suspension was going to work, so I wouldn't hurt myself or another motorist. So, it wasn't a "kit" as most people tend to think of. Yet that gl*** body sure does bring that word out. Sadly, even from some fellow hot rodders.

I can't change public perception and the words "kit car", will probably always be ***ociated with fibergl*** cars, but what I can do is continue to educate the person that tosses those words out so freely. "Simply a kit car"? I haven't met one yet.

In closing, I just want to add that you folks are putting out a great magazine and I love seeing it show up in my mailbox. I have learned a great deal from your pages, seen some sweet rides and look forward to future issues. Keep up the GREAT work.

Thanks, F.F.W. aka TFeverfred

 

Excellent letter and having built a "kit car" I know exactly what you are saying.
It would have been no difference if I would have used a Brookville steel body as it is a " kit car" as well, yet the stigma is lost because it is steel. If you put an original body on an aftermarket frame, install a non original motor, transmission and rear end, modify the steering, chrome the front end, etc., etc., etc., would this not cl***ify as a "kit car" also ?
Unless you are restoring the car to complete originality, they are all "kit cars"

 

Well said. I have a F5 33 hotrod that I am working that belongs to a friend. That is not a "KIT" there are quite a few things that have to be done. If it were a rolling ch***is when he got it and all that was required was engine, trans, battery and fluids that would be a "kit". tracking down the right components has been fun or frustrating at times. the body at some point will be a lot of work to sand, fill, sand, fill, prime, sand, prime, sand and then top coats.

 

i agree there is nothing simple about building any car and i hate the expression "kit car" especially when it is used to describe "any modified" car.
but.... what name would you put on a vehicle that the parts were made in recent years and can be bought using a catalog, credit card and cell phone?

 

I guess Corvettes and Avantis are kit cars?

Well-written letter. I appreciate your thoughts

 

Good on you FRED...I totally agree with you...I built a "T" back in 1960.and only the body was gl*** from Cal Automotive..Everything else was hand fabricated by myself..not quite like buying a Revell Kit to glue together..

 

Having never owned or built a fibergl*** bodied car, I have no idea what goes into one if purchased as a "complete" kit. I think there are all levels of fibergl*** bodied builds, and not all would fall under the "kit car" cl***ification. I know some owners who simply purchased a body, and then put together the rest the build themselves. Surely these aren't kit cars. I also know some who spent big money to get their fibergl*** cars as close to complete when ordering, and I would cl***ify those as kit cars.
Either way the end result is not simple or easy, but starting with just the body and building surely has to be much more difficult than a complete kit that gets you 90% there with less work.
And there's also a difference between a kit car, a factory built fibergl*** car, and a newly built "clone" gl*** reproduction car, like the Cobra replicas.

 

Very well written letter! Have you received any personal response?

Dave.

 

I'll agree with you on most of this. Not everyone has the time, money, and most importantly, the skills to hunt down vintage steel and bring it back to life as a functioning vehicle. As you pointed out, even a 'kit car' can be a complicated project (more so than what some of the sellers of said kits make them out to be), as witnessed by the unfinished cars that turn up for sale. What appears 'simple' to the accomplished builder can be overwhelming to a novice.

As to the stigma that attaches to kit cars, I've never got that. Even if it did come in a box, it's still a hot rod. I'll be more admiring of an owner-built kit than a I-wrote-a-big-check pro-built car, as the owner has put his soul into it. Not to say I can't appreciate the pro car, but it just doesn't have the 'soul investment' that a owner-build has, whether it's a kit or vintage steel.

But I've always felt this hobby should be a 'big tent', welcoming anybody with enough interest in older iron. While I fully understand the 'traditional' viewpoint, being elitist about it doesn't help to attract new hobbyists....

My .02 anyway....

 

He just did that to get your goat, and it worked!

I've grown quite fond of RF's editorials since he became editor of "my" R&C (the first car book I ever bought in '61 and subscribed to in '62.)
He's not Bill Burnum yet, but he's working on it!

 

Very well written and I completely agree with your position. To completely agree with someone else's opinion is something of a rarity for me !


Ray

 

"home-built" ?

 

I was recently asked by a fellow in the gas station as I was filling up my '63 corvette. "Is this a kit car?" its fibergl***!

 

If it looks like a '32 Ford I'd call it a hot rod !

 

I can appreciate what you are saying and your response to the article was good. I do believe that a "kitcar" has MOST of the engineering figured out but it still has to be BUILT, therefore, requiring such modifications to achieve such goals whether they be minor or major.

I do believe that anyone that is able to ***emble or scratch build their OWN hotrod without having to contract someone to do it should deserve props, fibregl*** or not. I'm more of a scratch build guy myself, I enjoy the challenges of making things work that normally wouldn't and I also enjoy fabrication. I learn that way.

Not dissing "kitcars" by any means because as I have said, you are still building but maybe not to the degree of the guys that go the full mile and do it all themselves (ch***is' from scratch, chop tops, motor builds, etc). To me it's all hotrodding and I have respect for that. I do not however have much respect for those who buy a car and pay someone else to do all the work and then run around like they are hot rodders, or for those who have 4000 posts with nothing to offer other than just saying "nice" or "cool build" etc. If you built it, kit form or otherwise, then good on you.

Just my .02

 

Well done Fred, very well done.
Is the editor of R&C still here on the board? He was for a while. I would be surprised if you didn't get a personal response.

 

Well I get a rash from fibergl***, so you want be seeing me building one! Good points tho... there is a perception that it's the easy way out.

 

In my opinion (which doesn't count for much), there is a big difference in taking an original car and modifying all aspects of it to make it the hot rod that you want, rather than calling up "Speedy" Bill and ordering the entire kit and having it dropped off at your doorstep. Both take blood, sweat, and tears to put together, but it also takes a hell of a lot more work to hunt down obsolete parts from all different types of vehicles, and then modify each individual piece, fabricating everything along the way, and make it all work together as one vehicle. Starting with a fibergl*** body is not cheating, as you have to do a lot of what I said above. However, buying the Speedway signature series '32 and a crate motor is.

 

"Homebuilt"? 'Shop built"?
Or, like I do, Hot Rod. That kinda gets away from where or how the owner got his parts and I don't think that should matter. Here's a challenge to the "1-800" stigma. Anyone, who has NEVER picked up a phone to BUY ANYTHING for your car..... post a pic. I'd love to see a car that was built out of 100% for free goodies. I'm not being sarcastic, I'd really like to see one. I think that would be neat. But if you bought nuts, bolts, engine parts, your engine, paint, bondo, tires, transmission......anything from another source other than your garage or driveway, well..... I bet where you got it has a phone. May not be a 1-800 suffix, but you bought, not built.

My main focus is the perception that a kit is "simple" and not due the respect it deserves.

 

Not yet. My last one took a couple days. I write everybody, all the time. I'm a rebel.

 

Well written, Fred, and for the most part I agree wholeheartedly. Nothing pisses me off more than someone at a cruise-in or car show asking me if my Wescott-bodied '32 is a "kit car". I usually have to take a deep breath and tell them no it didn't come in a box with a tube of glue. Then I realize that this person doesn't really have a clue. Sure I would love to have a "real Henry" roadster, but economically it's not going to happen. I would really like to think that Mr. Fortier was speaking a little bit "tongue-in-cheek" with his comments about hot-rodders ruining perfectly good cars and ruining potentially restored perfectly good cars. His last sentence does read; "That's just fine....let's keep doing what we do best". Nevertheless I think he's going to hear from more folks that just you Fred because he may have struck a bit of a nerve. He even admits that R&Cs current project, Tribute "T", cons***utes nothing more than bolting something together that resembles a hot rod. The debate will forever continue whether a car can be a hot rod if it has a fibergl*** body or not and I will continue to get annoyed every time some soul asks me if my car is a kit.

 

I agree with you a 100%. There is not a lot of difference with the amount of work that goes into building with gl*** or steel. Some of the tools and materials vary, but it's still a hel of a lot of work. I think a gl*** is discounted because people think its not real. Back in the day a lot of real hot rods, racers, & show cars were made of gl***, and it is VERY viable material. Just ask Mr. Roth.

 

"Kit car".

"Simply".

"Bolted together".

"Resembles a hot rod".

Any one of these could be argued. And it has been, at least as early as the '70s...in the pages of R&C, HOT ROD, Street Rodder, etc. It was pretty much determined that they are not "kits" as in the generally accepted definition, they are not "simple", and they are not just "bolted together". Also, they may or may not be considered to be "hot rods", depending on who you're talking to.

So especially an editor of a popular hot rod magazine should know better than to say any of that. Maybe he does know better, and he's just generating drama for a response. Maybe he's just too young to remember that it was thoroughly discussed decades ago.

 

This is worth reading before going off half ****ed about a genre that has been around since the 19th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kit_car

 

The OP raises valid points and makes a great argument. I have a question though, could the difference between a kit car/homebuilt vs."real" car come down to the VIN?

I've never worked on a vehicle from Factory Five or with an Art Morrison ch***is, do they provide a VIN for those ch***es?

Maybe it all comes down to semantics, does having been born with a VIN and ***le makes a car "real", even if the ***le is long gone?

 

I think there are many things that come into play here and perception is a major part of it. People calling gl*** cars a "kit car" is NOT just a public perception issue, it is just as prevalent within the hobby, and for that matter right here on the HAMB. Some of it is an elitist at***ude (If it ain't steel, it ain't real), some is ignorance, and some is just plain old stupidity. I'm not going to argue whether or not only real Henry ford built cars are the only Hot Rods or not, I'll leave that for those that think they are really qualified to make that call (and before you do, think about this, how much of the original stuff built in Dearborn has to remain to make it "Real", iv fact riddle me this batman - I had a "34 Ford", original frame, original grille and hood, original steel fenders, Original rear apron and gas tank - BUT a gl*** body, so what was it?????)

Anyway, what I really wanted to talk about was "Kit Cars" and my take on it. To me a Kit car is a car that comes in a kit - in other words you order the majority of the components from one manufacturer and bolt them together with little or no fabrication, probably using a donor car for running gear. this can be a VW based Dune Buggy, a Porsche Speedster, A Fauxbra (my nick name for a Cobra kit, and I had one before anyone gets their ******* in a wad) or a Speedway Lo Boy. Now most of these are Gl*** cars, but what about the Speedway 32 kit that is a STEEL car? It's still a Kit Car in my opinion. If it looks smells and acts like a HOT ROD, at that point it is a HOT ROD, just based on a kit.
On the other hand a guy buys a Wescott body, some frame rails and "builds" the car from there, with fabrication, modifying of parts etc. is that a Kit car? Hell no. Call it a home built, a self built, or whatever, (State of California calls it a Special Construction) but if the style is right, it's a freakin HOT ROD.

A gl*** body does NOT designate something as a Kit Car, and I'm sure Ed Roth and Dean Jeffries would agree on that. And by the same token, just because you buy most of your components new from various manufacturers doesn't make it a kit car either since rarely does that **** work together and you end up modifying or remaking half the stuff anyway. Those who like to spew the 1-800-streetrod bull **** have obviously never actually tried to out a car together that way, it ain't tab A into slot B, believe me. We used to have a huge sign in my shop "It Will Cost More Than You Think, Because Bolt On Part's Don't"

 

If I was in a wheel chair, living in the desert, and had to have my stuff ordered and delivered, wouldn't I still be a hot rodder? I just think we're ALL hot rodders or custom guys, regardless of how we got the parts or what the parts are made of.

Maybe, in my getting old age, I'm just tired of the damn labels being attached to everything. What ever happened to, "Wow! that's a cool car."?

 

The rash from fibergl*** is some of its soul rubbing off....
Crazy Steve said it first regarding "pay to build" cars owners...I have met many that said they built it only to find out that they paid to have the work done...

weld on.......

 

hotroddon, You said everything I wanted to say, you just said it better.

 

Fred, nice job, my most loved car was a gl*** T, but here's the rub, I dare ANYONE on this board to tell us what a car is made of as it drives past, looking and playing the part. To me, they are all hot rods, gl*** cars have been around ALMOST as long as I've been alive, (long time), I've heard fools describe my T as a kit to their wives-girlfriends, I just laugh, my current project is a 28 chrysler three window, modified to the point where the original car barely exists, its no more or less "real" than my T was. Good on ya. LeRoy.
See me at www.trolls.quack.net