Noob here, but long time thread reader. The 1951 Cadillac 331 engine is converted to 12V in my 34 Ford. I purchased it as a non-running project. Straight up, Im not an ignition wizard, but I do have a general understanding or so I thought. Ive tried to figure this out but Im lost at this point. All grounding is accounted for; motor to frame, frame to Batt, stock 331 dizzy to motor, dizzy to frame, frame to body. Since it didnt run when I bought it, I put a Petronix Ignitor with a 40K V Flame Thrower coil to make life easier (I kept the points and condenser that came in the dizzy) along with new cap, rotor, and wires on the stock dizzy. After cranking and no spark at the pulled #1 plug, I checked and got the following: 1.5 Ohm @ coil, 12.3V @ batt, 11.7V @ coil with switch on, 9.7V @ coil when cranking. Had Petronix on the phone for (4) hours and we walked through everything. They finally told me to send the module back and Im currently waiting on a replacement. Prior to sending the module back, I read some threads on this site related to this subject. One of the last things I did was hook the plug directly to the coil and crank it. During cranking there was no spark. When turning the ignition switch off, I got a spark. I repeated that a couple of times and re-checked my wiring. I dont know what that means other than I think the coil is working. Wiring at ignition switch seems to all be good; gages all work, lights, etc. Ive checked resistance and continuity on the plug wires, cap, and rotor. After pulling the Petronix, I threw the points and condenser back in. I went through the same tests and same results and still no spark to or through the dizzy and none at the coil either now when turning the switch to off. I went as far as rigging up a simple starter switch to isolate the everything. No spark with Petronix or points. Ill assume the Petronix module was bad, but any ideas on why nothing using points? Bad condenser; maybe its a 6V condenser still? Bad points? Now that its converted to 12V does anyone have a recommendation for replacement points and condenser? Thanks for the help.
1. Are your points adjusted correctly? It sounds like they may be closed all the time with the spark when you turn the key off. 2. do you have the same side of the coil grounded as the ground for the battery? Simply meaning that which ever side you have the battery grounded on the lead from the coil to the distributor has to match on the coil. - ground battery = - to distributor on coil and so forth. 3. are the connections for the points and condenser connected correctly? On some distributors you can get the connector on the wrong side of the insulator and ground out the ignition with everything else looking ok. On that note is the lead from the coil to the points/ or Pertronix unit insulated and not grounding on the body of the distributor? My guess is that your problem is right where the wire goes into the distributor housing or right on the connection on the inside where it connects to the points/ignitor. Along with that call the damned thing by it's correct name it's a DISTRIBUTOR not a fucking "dizzy" that probably pissed the Cad engine off enough not to run for you.
Mr. 48chev - point taken on the distributor - maybe she (the 331) is screwing with me because of that. To answer your questions: 1. Points gap is .019. I can watch them open and close as the rotor is turning during cranking with the cap removed; not the faintest sign of a spark. Plugs are .035 gap. TDC found and timing mark was set on the "A" mark in the damper 2. Yes, the coil is correctly grounded, and the circut back to the negative side of the battery is as well. 3. I will double check that the connector is on the correct side of the insulator; I'm pretty sure it was. All the leads from the coil to Petronix or points are well insulated and not ground to the distributor. I did check that more times than I can remember I will take a look at the connector to insulator junction when I get home (that's not for another week though). In the event she should fire after addressing that, I will buy you a beer.
I guess it didn't Points work fine and are so simple to diagnose and fix on the road if needed. Hamb needs a thread on simple things that sound so complex to the modern person. Get a test light. Put key on. Test plus side of coil for voltage? if OK, then; -test minus side while cranking. Is the light blinking, or on steady or no light at all? - If the light is not working, it could be shorted wire to points, or shorted out cond, or shorted coil, (less likely) - If light stays on steady during cranking, then the points are not making contact correctly, IF the point plate is grounded OK. So either file the points or rub a pre 1982 copper penny on the surfaces to get a contact.
mr48chev thank you for the clarification on the distributor I don't know where these kids came up with dizzy I think it comes from texting all thetime
Thanks, F&J. I'll give that a shot and give an update as soon as I can. Studebaker48, I have to laugh. Hell, I'm 54 years old and the first time I read or saw "dizzy" I thought WTF is a "dizzy"?
Lets go deeper in the test light tests; If you confirm you have power at the plus side of coil, but test light does not come on while testing the minus side while cranking; -take off all wires on the minus side of coil. Now test that coil minus stud, does it now have power? If yes, then that part of the coil is OK. If it still has no power there, coil is bad, as far as that circuit in the coil. If the light does work on the minus side with wires all disconnected from it, now lets see if the condenser is the problem; Unhook the pigtail of the condenser, but keep the points still connected to that wire that goes to the minus side of coil. (yes, hook up the original wires back on the minus side). Now, with condenser bypassed, does the minus side show power with points OPEN?. If yes, then the condenser was/is shorted internally. -if it still does not show power at minus side of coil with condenser bypassed, AND points open, then you need to see where that point/cond wire is somehow shorted to ground. Could be a chafed wire at a grommit, or as was said, something grounding out where the point/cond wire attaches to the points. Hopefully at some point in these tests, you will see power at the minus side of coil, with the points OPEN. Now, crank the motor to see if the minus side blinks on/off as it is cranking. If yes, then the points are working OK. if the light stays on steady while cranking, then the points are not making a good contact. Ok, if it does blink; Now test the coil high tension circuit if the light is blinking while cranking; Pull the wire out of the center of dist cap. Hook a spare spark plug to that wire and lay the plug on the motor for a ground. Cranking the engine should show the plug firing at every cylinder. If your minus still is blinking, but no sparks coming from the coil wire, then the coil is bad.(or that main coil wire is bad) Going further into the cap; If you do now have sparking from the coil wire, put it back into the cap, and with cap back on, see if you have sparking coming to the plug wires at a plug or two. If there still is no spark at the plugs, then either the rotor or cap is defective. I usually test several plug wires to make sure that I have not picked a single plug wire that is bad. Test a few, to make sure.
a very simple, but often overlooked problem I have experienced has to to with where the wire to the points passs through the body of the distributor. I have found the wire to be faulty, and grounded in a variety of ways that are not obvious. After chasing all the above, and pulling all my hair out, I have found this to be the problem.
F&J - Thanks for the very clear explanation. I will run your series of tests a week from today and let you know how it goes. I'd do it right now but the car is in Vegas and I'm in Prudhoe Bay, Ak. I'm begining to suspect the condenser is probably a 6V and not a 12V. I assume that would be an issue in this case. Any suggestions about compatible replacement parts for the points and condenser now that its converted to 12V? Thank you.
If you get a spark when you turn the ignition switch off, it means that the negative side of the coil is grounded. The points are supposed to ground the negative side of the coil when they close. Put a piece of plastic or cardboard between the points then try turning the ignition switch on and off to see if you get a spark. If you do, take the wire(s) off the negative side of the coil and try again. If you get a spark, the coils is internally grounded. If no spark, then something in the circuit is grounding it. The wire could be grounded where it goes through the distributor housing. The condenser could be shorted. The most likely cause on those points is that somebody got the wire touching ground on the points themselves. The points have an insulating block riveted to the point body that the point spring, condenser lead and wire connect to. If the coil lead or condenser lead is turned wrong when the points are installed it can contact the rivet on the insulator and ground the connection.
Engine Man. I'll take another look. If they're installed wrong, that "sombody" could only be me. I'm feeling pretty good about re-checking things when I get back to the house. I'll post up the results and hopefuilly a sound bite.
The reason I asked on the wire (s) being connected to the points correctly is that I connected them wrong on my 51 Mercury when I was 16 and my buddy and I decided to do a tune up on it at his folks place. I about went nuts trying to figure it out and when Jim and I walked down to my auto mechanic teacher's house and asked him about it and gave him a big laugh in the process he explained that we had probably grounded the connection on the points. Follow F&J's suggestions and you should have it running in no time. One thing I have figured out in the past 50 years of working on cars is that it is usually a lot easier to start and engine with the stuff that came with it if it has been sitting for a while and get it running decently "before" you start swapping out pieces like the ignition setup unless you don't have any to start with. You did have the rubbing block of the points on one of the high points of the distributor cam and not the flat part when you set the points? I've seen more than one won't start situation where that happened.
If you have tested for voltage you can use a set of jumper cables clamped to distributer housing directly to the battery ground terminal and if it fires work backwards.
Mr48chev,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o> <o></o> I did gap the points when the points' rubbing block was on the distributor cam high point; that Im sure of. <o></o> <o> </o> I'm not in front of the vehicle right now, but Im thinking I hurried through attaching the condenser wire and attached it at the wrong place as you and Engine Man has pointed; on the inside of the insulator and touching the rivet. Ill blame that on my frustration and poor lighting. Thatll be the first issue I address when I get home. Since points condensers are relatively inexpensive Ill start with a new replacement set and go from there.<o></o> <o> </o> I appreciate everyones input.
F&J, Engine Man, all... Ok, I got a test light actually 2; one for ignition power on and one for ignition power off (battery powered test light). With new points and new condenser installed, here is what I have: <O Using my battery powered test light and bench testing the coil off the car with one lead on + and the other lead on -, the light goes on. When I remove the positive lead and ground it to the coil housing with the - side post still attached, the light goes back on.<O <O With the same test light as above:<O With battery not hooked up and points and condenser installed: test light on negative post and positive post of coil test light goes on<O With battery not hooked up and points and condenser installed: test light on negative post of coil then grounded to engine test light goes on <O With battery hooked up, ignition switch off, one lead on negative post, one on positive post the light is on. When I turn the ignition key to the run (not start) position, the light goes off. When I continue to turn key to the start position, light goes back on; constant, not blinking. <O></O> <O Voltage checking the battery and the coil<O Battery=12V<O Coil=11.3V with ignition switch turned on<O Coil=9.3V while cranking<O
I don't get why you are testing it that way? Please use the old fashioned non-battery powered test light, and go through the exact steps I wrote above. I can help if you do those tests exactly as I wrote them. as far as 6 or 12 volt points or condenser...that is not your problem.
F&J, I just put the non-powered test light on it. With both leads on coil, the light goes on with ignition switch in run position. The light goes dim but not out or blinking when cranking. I still manage to get a spark when turning the switch from the run position to off when doing the above and I have a plug connected to the coil wire. I should start fresh in the morning
not sure what you mean there.. "both leads" Ok, you tested at the plus side and the light is on bright..with test light grounded, and testing the plus side.. then if you test the minus side while cranking, it should be blinking if all is OK. So if it is just dim, but not blinking...with test light grounded and testing the minus side... then that would indicate that the points are not making a good contact..OR the plate that the points are attached to, is not grounded. To test to see if that plate is grounded while cranking? ..hook the test light to the plus side and put the test light probe on that point mounting plate. The light should stay on without any flickering. Still not sure if the points are making good contact? Easy test; Hook the test light to ground. Now take the probe and test each of the 2 round point "contact" while the points are closed, and the ign is on. If the points are not making a good contact, the one that is attached to the moving arm of the points will have power, and the grounded side of the points will not show power. If you don't understand the way I am writing it, let me know. I will write it differently.
F&J, OK, new day (better day?). I printed all the advice and tips on this thread and took them to the garage. I still have the Pertronix Flame Thrower 1.5 ohm coil mounted in the car. If you don't want to read all the test results, go to the very bottom and look at final test. I pulled the distributor to bench test and confirm the assembly is correct. After installing the points and condenser in the distributor I took the battery powered test light clip and attached it to the lead coming from the points. I grounded the probe to the distributor body and gave the shaft a spin. The light was on when the points were closed and off when they opened. This is the only time I used this light for testing this morning; all other tests were done with the test light that requires ignition power to illuminate. I checked the coil and get 1.5 ohm from minus stud to plus stud. I get about 10400 ohm from minus stud to coil wire and I get the same from plus stud to coil wire. I re-installed the distributor, points wire to minus side of coil, ignition wire to plus side of coil, etc. Points are correctly adjusted, points plate ground confirmed (test light on plus side of coil, probe to points plate - light goes on and stays on with no flickering), distributor to engine ground is good too. First test: Attached test light clip to plus side of coil and probe to ground - turn key to on or run position and I get light. Light stays on while cranking, no blinking, just slightly dimmer. Second test: Test light clip to minus side of coil and probe to ground - turn key to on or run position and I get no light. No light while cranking either (this may be where I'm misunderstanding directions). Third test: Disconnect minus side coil wire (points wire) and attached clip to bare stud and light to ground (again, I may be misunderstanding directions). With ignition on, off, or cranking - no light. Then (just for curiosity) I kept the same position of clip and moved probe to plus side of coil I get light while on run and cranking. Because the light did not work here, I did not re-check the condenser, but I will as soon as this is sent. Fourth test: I did was check that points are making contact: test light to ground, ignition on, points closed and no light. Last test: Not sure why I even did this, but I removed the coil from the mounting bracket and placed it on a piece of wood on top of the motor. With everything correctly connected, I repeated test #2, #3, and #4. Test #2 I get very distinct bright blinking while cranking. I can't see the points from my vantage point to see if they're showing spark. Test #3 I get constant light while switch is on or cranking. Test #4 with everything reconnected, points closed, test light clip to ground, ignition on - I get nothing on either side of the points. When I manually separate the points I get a spark. Finally, I threw the cap back on the distributor, cranked it over and I get spark - it's very faint, but I get spark. Hope I'm not frustrating anyone on all this, but with my final series of tests and weak spark, I still don't know what is going on. I'm damn glad it's moving forward though... or so it appears.
I've read it twice...at least and I commend you for isolating that coil. That is a surprise to me that it seems to act they way it does. A bit rushed right this minute, but if you have a standard old coil, either 6 or 12v, I'd try that. Coils don't need to be grounded, nor should it make a difference like you show...so maybe that coil is shorted inside, to the case, from the minus side? Bubba would know for sure if that coil type will work with points ign. Also a hamber on here, works for Petronics and might spot this, and tell us. I did have a box of new aftermarket coils given to me, and some were marked "for breakerless", some said "for external resistor with points" etc...so there must be a difference in some. Your last test with coil insulated from the engine, says the points are working ok, and that is why i'd switch to a conventional coil at this time. Bear in mind that if the ignition is now/or soon to be sorted out, you may also have wet plugs, low compression, slow cranking speeds, etc etc.
F&J, I really appreciate all the help you and everyone else put into this. After that last test I did, I called Pertronix and spoke with Marvin in the tech department. He helped me prior with the ignition module. After I explained a few things and we walked through some testing, he confirmed that the coil was somehow shorted. They got a replacement in the mail today and I'm sending the old one back. Hopefully by weeks end I can report that it's started and running. Again, my sincerest thanks to all.
I got my replacement coil from Pertronix yesterday and installed it. I cranked it over with a plug grounded to check for spark and low and behold it had spark. Screwed the plug in and squirted a little starting fluid in it and it lit for long enough to run on is own. I poured in a little gas and it ran for a promising 5 seconds or so. It's alive! Now its a matter of getting the radiator reinstalled, remaining wiring hooked up, brakes connected, and a few miscellaneous items addressed and it should be ready for a test drive. I'll be sure and give an update when all that happens. Thanks again for all the help guys!
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