Acetone + ATF Penetrant: They don't mix!

I sort of goofed and only checked one bank with the scope. The engine was stored parallel to the wall, so I checked the exposed bank. I improperly ***umed if one bank was good , the other would be too. But it is entirely possible there was a different kind of exposure to the other bank. For one, it would not "dry out" as quick as the away from the wall bank.

I'm thinking of pulling the valve covers and rocker shafts and see how far I can get and definitely pressurize two cylinders at the same time. (Technically, half the cylinders are going up while the other half are going down but like you said, when they are near the top, you don't get much torque on the crank, however, if you still put the pressure on them you'll help them "get away" from the crank.)

 

What part of country are you in?
If its cold, you could rig a deal to circulate hot water thru the block while the pistons stay frozen. Much like putting bearing races in the freezer trick.

 

This works with candle-wax, too, and is a lot less toxic.

 

it took 35 years to "stick" the engine give the 50/50 some time to work. how many stored engines do you have? pull the plugs and give them a shot of oil once every 5 years. friend of mine said he was going to build this engine, but it was stuck. I'm "oil the walls" 3 years later nothing has happened. there is no magic oil to oil a stuck engine....TIME is the answer. I have 20 engines stored here and there, when i change oil i look for the "lost" engines and fill them with used oil

 

use new out of the can/bottle , but if you can try to find the older non synthetic stuff ( I have a case of it in the old paper/foil cans that use a push in spout remember those??)

 

we used to use the dry ice method at the shipyard same principle shrinks the bolt a couple of thousandths to break the threads grip . you can use keyboard dust off just flip the can upside down and spray the liquid .

 

A few outside the box thoughts:

Applying very high pressure:

One fellow mentioned using the hydraulic power unit off a tractor to pressurize a cylinder. While I don't have one, I'm think what do I have that produces hydraulic pressure: porta power and power steering pumps. Hummm. Just a thought at this time.

What else is high pressure: a Pressure Washer. Plump directly to cylinder.

Load cycling:

One fellow talked about hauling stuck tractor home on flat bed with it in gear. The various vibrations during transport would many times break the engine free.

Right now I'm manually alternating 150 psi chop air on a Compression and a Power Stroke cylinder. Of course I can only do this a few times since it is a manual process.

I do have lots of electric pressure valves, actuators, and relays from s****ped from test lab cycling machines that were built to test various appliance controls for Robershaw Constrols.

I could build a pressure cycling machine that would continuously alternate the application of those two pressures.

I was also thinking of any way to apply an alternating torque to the crankshaft too.

Measuring crank movement:

I setup a dial indicator on about a 16" moment arm on the crank and when I reverse pressures, I think there is barely detectible motion of the order of .0001" which is less than I would have expected if: the other 6 pistons were perfectly frozen, the crank could rotate as much as the rod bearing clearance and the pressurized pistons were moving.

If I don't get the expected motion due to bearing clearance, there should be no reason to try to pressurize pairs of cylinders if I remove the rocker shafts and allow all the valves to close.

Black Rust -v- Red Rust:

Sure would like to know more about how this affects approach.

 

I foresee spark plug threads ripped out of the head.

 

Pulling the heads pan and caps might be in the near future on this one ....


Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!

 

Spark plug threads I think are safe. Detonation produces pressures around 5000 psi. Of course top fuel engines sometimes blow the spark plugs out(!)

I'm considering maybe throwing the towel in and breaking the engine down. Still I'll have to free up the individual pistons.

I could turn the engine upside down and soak the pistons from the bottom.

I could loosen the rod bearings to allow pressure (leave heads on) to move individual pistons.

I was just thinking that since I used chrome rings, they will tolerate a lot of "dirt" and still live. I remember reading the circle track guys used chrome since they could tolerate dirt in the intake.

 

no, smoke the basil leaf

 

A friend and I have a collection of hit and miss engines and in restoring them we have had good luck using a hand pump grease gun to pump penetrating oil past pistons to free up stuck engines. Just made an adapter out of a spark plug, filled the cylinder with something like MMO and used the grease gun like a funnel with a pump on the end of it.

 

My experiences with it have been good, better on average than commercial penetrants, with the caveat that it can be messy and stinky as anything else involving ATF and if not stored in a sealed container the acetone will evaporate over time.

 

Detonation pressure is momentary, and lasts for milliseconds. Hydraulic pressure is constant. If this were my engine, it would already have been completely apart, and back together.

 

gimpyshotrods:

yeah, I know. But its the challenge to free it up. My Bad.

mike:

using the grease gun like a "funnel" AND using MMO (or the like) is just what I was trying to figure out how to do: a manual way to apply hydraulic pressure using oil, not grease. Very Cool!

 

Guys the best stuff ive used is called " FREE ALL by federal process.. Great stuff. Up here in Buffalo, NY we know sticky stuff and rust. Its in cleveland, ohio www.federal process.com if this helps.

 

^^ the link didn't work, as part of it was not included

for the company site,

http://www.federalprocess.com/

or specifically;

http://www.gasoila.com/products/penetrants.html

for the "Free All" penetrant

 

Why They Don't Mix? ANSWERED!

Finally found this, a reply in a thread basically dedicated to the same topic came from the author of the article that appeared in Machinist's Workshop magazine.

He said they got tons of inquiries because they don't mix!

Here is what he said and was published in a subsequent issue:

I get more mail about this one little article than any of the others we have printed. Almost all of the mail relates to the fact that the two ingredients in the homemade penetrant do not mix. The fact that the photo in the magazine shows a container of Power Steering Fluid, while the text refers to Automatic Transmission Fluid, has also spurred more than a few people to call or write.

The author was kind enough to write a reply to these questions and it appeared in the February/March 2010 issue of Machinist’s Workshop. The following is Lloyd W. Bender’s reply:

The original homemade penetrating oil mixture called for using trichloroethelyne as the solvent. I cannot recommend trichlor for home shop use and definitely not for anything slightly resembling a business. Both PSF and ATF will form emulsions with acetone under mild agitation sufficient to thin the oil enough to penetrate. Upon standing, these will separate. Acetone performs better than the other commonly available organic solvents, such as methanol, but not as well as trichlor.

George Bullis ​

​

Here is the link: http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/47279-Penetrating-Oil/page4

EDIT: trichlor is still available from chemical supply houses such as: Ward Scientific 500ml @ $22.50 While everyone nowadays says how terrible it is, it was common years ago. Remember, in the old Lionel Maintenance Manuals for toy trains, they recommended using a "common household solvent such as benzene" for cleaning armature commutators. We have grown soft and fearful.

 

All that's left is to determine if methyl salycilate is better. Here is one first hand account of its use by the Navy:

If you can find any, you might try Oil of Wintergreen = Methyl Salicylate. It used to be sold in the drug store near here for use as a rubefacient, but is harder to find now. It is what gives the odor to Marvel Mystery oil, and was used by Navy technicians working on P-3's at the nearby base to free stuck fasteners; they and I used it straight out of the bottle but you could also add it to the transmission fluid for general use.
In tests by my Navy friends, it worked better than any commercial P.O.including Kroil.

Here is the link: http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?31170-Homemade-penetrating-oil

 

Methyl Salicylate $8.34 a pint @ www.bulkapothecary.com

I'm going to get some. US Navy is hard to refute.

 

I don't know what I did wrong but the stuff mixed for me

 

You got ATF and acetone to mix? What type of ATF did you use?

 

Just shake it like Italian salad dressing. Pretty simple really.

 

Well, if it "mixes" like Italian dressing - that is oil and water which do not mix - they can form an emulsion if you shake them up enough.

The ATF and acetone behaves the same way. You get a "milky" emulsion.

If they mixed, the resulting solution would be clear (and ruby red!)

So can you confirm it? Did you get a milky emulsion or a clear mix?

 

After seeing the post the other day I mixed an egg cup of acetone and the same quan***y of Caltex Dexron 111 ATF and 4 days later it is still a clear red mix. I've been using a mix like this for probably 30 years, in earlier days it was Dexron 11.
It works for me. The other ATF brand I have used is Halvolene purchased in San Diego, I believe it's the same stuff.

 

That's interesting.

I tried acetone with CAT transmission fluid and also vegetable oil and it did not mix.

I did take 2 courses of Organic Chemistry and we used acetone all the time to dry gl***ware.

What I do remember is that the OC acetone was VERY volatile - almost like ether.

The stuff in my gallon can in the garage, I swear, even when new, did not have that volatility. So I wonder if a 10 year old container with an inch left in the bottom may have lost all the high volatility components. In other words, it is like stale gasoline, and doesn't do what its supposed to.

Of course, if that was true, I wouldn't expect to see the "epidemic" of people who have tried it and they didn't mix all over the internet.

One fellow in particular said Dextron II mixed and III did not.

Of course, tricholoethylene was the original blend with ATF that worked better than acetone.

I just ordered metyl salicylate and am eager to try it.

Interesting.

How old is your acetone?
Tom

 

Been following this interesting thread. Please keep us posted with your results using the Methyl Salicylate.

 

No, I can't confirm if it's milky or clear. Mine isn't in a clear container. My Italian salad dressing is though. Kind of a golden/tan when you shake it. I like Wishbone Zesty, try it.

 

Actually your comic remark calls the following question to mind:

Since vinegar is perhaps one of the best for freeing a piston, would a combination of oil and vinegar be effective?

It seems that ingredients don't have to mix to be effective!
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While a seemingly legitimate question, I think any oil would protect metal/rust from the aqueous vinegar so it probably would not be effective.

But it also seems to jog my memory about people making very cheap large quan***ies of penetrant. They would use gasoline for solvent and, I actually think, vegetable oil.
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Let's keep this thread aimed at penetrants better than acetone and ATF.

 

Vinegar will attack aluminum and remove iron/steel.
I'd bet an engine soaked in vinegar would need a rebuild.