Hi, I'd like to know what year the motor we've found is. It was in a '38 Ford but some clues make me think it's not the original motor in the car. First, the plate on the car begins with 54, AFAIK this is for the V8-60. But this motor is definitely not the small one. It has 24 studs. One of the heads has 59A-B, the other one C7RA-A cast in the middle. I understand the latter is Canadian. I've found no casting number on the block around the bellhousing. The only number I found on the block is '54437' stamped into the area between the intake manifold and the cylinder head at the front on the driver side. The bore is 3.1875", I couldn't measure the stroke yet, but if I'm right, if I measure the piston position from TDC on cylinders 6 and 7 and add them, the result is the stroke. Following this logic, the stroke is 4", if TDC is right at the top of the block. The distributor is the early dome style, the intake manifold is aluminum, the radiator fan is located on the generator. The two water pumps have the motor mounts on their corners. Can anyone help me on this? Thanks guys!
Go to http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_specs-85to100mid.htm This will give you a pretty good guide to identifying your Flattie. Unfortunately, it only goes up to 48 and it sounds like you may have a later engine with a 4" crank and earlier heads.
Thanks, I've already visited this site but it didn't help. One of the points that mess it all up is the 4" stroke - and I'm not 100% positive it's really 4. It may be 3.75. If it was 3.75, this would be a '39 to '41 Mercury, right?
It does sound like an early Merc 99. Look for a 99 stamped near the right front of block intake surface--some have this ID right on them. Is the engine able to be rotated? I would try to measure the actual total motion of a single cylinder. The difference between the two strokes is easy to pick up this way, with just a ruler. The 4" crank will go right into a 99, but I'd assume it's a pretty uncommon part over there! Are the water holes in the block in the center between the 2 and 3 cylinders on each side round or are there a couple of big trapezoid ones?
I'll try to find the 99. The holes are trapeziod shape and they are quite big. The lower 2 are similar, the upper one is different, it's almost like a flat triangle upside down. The crank doesn't turn over so I can't measure the stroke this way. But you're right, Ford crankshafts were not lying around here in large numbers so they could swap a 4" instead of the 3.75".
OK, drop the pan! Scrutinize the crank for cleaning holes sealed with a steel cup type plug at the ends of rod throws. If there is no sign of these holes at all, you have a '48-back crank, almost certainly 3.75 (some WERE stroked by early rodders). Small holes for a cup means Ford OR Canadian Merc late crank, big holes means American Merc...I can't think of dimension...maybe 3/8" versus 7/16" or so for diameter of actual cup? Anyway, small will barely accept tip of little finger... Then...measure across biggest part of big front counterweight..I think Merc is a bit over 6", Ford a bit under. I'm foggy on this because I don't actually own any late Ford cranks. If there's a "1CM" cast on the thing, it's definitely Merc, but only a minority of Merc cranks have this (1951 up automatic application.) If you remove a rod cap, all late cranks have 2 oil holes per throw, early has but one. At the trapezoid, see if edge of outer part of cylinder casting almost reaches the trapezoidal hole...99 blocks have THICK cylinders. If somewhat distant, it could be an overbored Ford.
Wow Bruce, now that's the kind of information I was looking for. I'll definitely check all this when I remove the crank. Here's a picture of the engine, parts of the water holes can be seen (and the plugged intake ports marked with red arrows). Thanks, I really appreciate your help.
Distributor would be '33-36 American useage. I'm pretty sure Ford Germany used this later, though. What is wheelbase of car?? Europe got USA, british, and Canadian stuff, variants from Germany and France, And there was a British model common in Europe that was just a little bit smaller than a USA Ford, originally sold only as a V8-60...I think it spawned both the postwar Pilot 85 and some Matfords, but I'm guessing there. Water pumps don't look American. Is that intake gasket area a raised casting or just stained?? Maybe that's a G29 or G99 left by the Wehrmacht...Does front timing cover have a timing pin in a threaded hole like a Model A? Our German V8 expert is Flatordead...we may need him! Look at timing gear, too, and hunt for anything beginning with "G". Is oil pan a stamping or an aluminum casting??
I didn't know there were German made flatheads. I only knew about the French ones. The only answer I can give you without looking at the motor is that it has a cast aluminum oil pan with a Ford script in it.
Here you go check this thread about the German flatheads.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12050&highlight=32LIMEY Kev.
Just to add to Bruce's "slewthing ideas." The "quick and dirty" way to identify a Merc vs. Ford crank as Bruce says is the measurement across one of the big counter weights; (at right angles to the crank centerline) over 6" = MERC 4" stroke crank - under 6" = FORD 3.75" stroke crank. The clean out (sludge traps to some) traps were 3/8" THREADED plugs on Canadian Merc cranks. (and sometimes were BOTH 3/8" or 5/8") If you can see the very front counter weight; in the center front just above the front bearing, there would be a RECTANGULAR DIMPLE cast in it, if it's a Canadian 4" stroke Merc crank. It's my understanding that Canada did ship a lot of engine components to Germany, so that could explain a couple of the Canadian numbers. I'm wondering if your engine was assembled from "scrounged" parts?
The Ford Flathead V8 website DOES have engine ID info all the way up thru 1953. Ya just gotta go to the proper link: http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_specs-90to125late.htm Having said that, the engine is obviously the 1939-42 twenty-four stud variety. What makes it from this era are the trapezoidal shaped center water jacket openings in the top of the cylinder part of the block. The 41 and 42 blocks had the "raised" intake manifold mounting surface. The picture you showed does not make this clear but you can see and feel it on the motor if you want to. This picture here shows a typical '41 block detailing the water holes and intake surface: Other details: 1939-41 blocks could have been equipped from Ford with the thin-wall cylinder sleeves. The 1939-40 blocks (and some 41 production) had the little core plugs (freeze-out plugs) in the bottom edges of the block where the oil pan bolts up. They're about the size of a dime (5/8"?) and there are two along each side. These are evident from the side of the block by the corresponding raised bump outs in the block to accomodate the core plugs. Again, I cannot see this area on your photo. The 3.1875" bore was standard for the 39 and up Mercury engines. Of course, someone could have bored out the motor to this size after it left Ford's plant. The stroke was always 3-3/4" on all Ford and Merc motors until you got the new 1949-53 Merc motors with the 4" stroke crankshaft. A simple ruler down a cylinder at its bottom stroke will tell you that much. The timing cover and distributor indicate the 32-41 style setup. As Bruce points out, the water pumps look odd. Something different about the hubs on the pumps. If you get around to pulling the pan (that must be something mfr'd on export/overseas production) you can check the spacing of the main journals. The 1938 motor had 2.399" wide journals. The 1939 motor upgraded to the 2.499" wide journals. Also, there was a difference in the crankshaft length. The '39 Deluxe and all 1940 and 41 motors used the long snout crank to allow for the mounting of a crank pulley with the fan directly mounted to it. This should give you some things to check out. With the 59A-B cylinder head on one side, it's obvious someone has mixed up some parts. Tearing down the motor will complete the story 100% for you.
Aluminum pan is German. You likely have a block delivered to Hungary in 1944 by the Wehrmacht! I've got a '44 German parts book around here somewhere. They made 99 and later 29 engines for truck use. Here's a WWII truck site: http://www.jfijlr21.demon.co.uk/ with some specs, but not much to help ID. I'm pretty sure that if it's German, there will somewhere be cast markings indicating that. Obviously, the thing survived WWII running somehow, as both heads are postwar parts. They must have been scrounged through some civilian channels; I think the vast majority of flathead stuff in Europe would have been Canadian, British, and German military stock, all of prewar design. German catalogs show both 3 bolt American carbs and 4 bolt (Solex?) carbs. British used both, Canadian was American stuff up there.
Might be some info on this site that would help. http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/flathead.htm Good Luck Tom
Got a pic of the aluminum oil pan? Sounds cool! head could have been replaced after one cracked previously. My motor had different brand head gaskets on each side
I worked a bit on the motor today and took photos. A lot of pictures will follow. I still haven't found any casting numbers on the block itself. Here are all the details and numbers that may help ID'ing the motor: Aluminum intake with a logo or something like that: Passenger side water pump, casting KSM531 (other side has 530 without KSM): Aluminum pan, a large bit of it missing. Just below the hole there's a Ford script: Connecting rod with Ford script and a B in a circle: Rod cup with Ford script, B in a circle and '99A6210': Piston, the number is '58105': Block underside, note the two drain plugs at the water outlets, one of them having a H--L casting: First counterweight, no sign of a dimple that would indicate Mercury. The casting number on the second counterweight is quite hard to read. 59A maybe? Opposite side of the second counterweight: Exhaust manifold, casting says '18-9431': Bottom of oil pump, '18-6616' and 'HD': Intake surface in level with the block: Intake surface driver side front: '54437' stamped: This is the oil pan surface right at the edge af the block next to the driver side water pump: First counterweight sidest size (equals about 7"): Rod journal diameter: Main journal diameter: I hope this will give some more clues.
That oil pump looks like WOT or some other European truck style...the water pumps look German, but the German flattys I've seen have a rear mounted Bosch distributor. You may just have something cobbled together...
Valve train is intersting. Some kind of adjustable lifters?? Springs go all the way to the lifters?? Would love to see it apart. What about no vent at the front of the pan. Is that right?. Great converstion piece!
This is the pan from the inside. There's a lifter that has fallen out while we were rotating the block, I'll try to find and take a pfoto of it. It has olny two small holes on the side, not like the ones I see on ebay and parts stores that have the long, slant cutout. It'll be hard to move on with the disassembly as two of the pistons are stuck and I'll have to take the motor to a machinist to take it apart. I think this engine has seen a lot of abuse. The cam is broken, a short piece with six lobes fell out with the lifter. And how would anyone try to operate an engine with two pistons missing?
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