Technical Looking for transmission options for 1950 Dodge230 flathead

I know this topic is discussed frequently, but I really don't seem to be finding the information I am looking for.
I am wondering what "simple" options there are for transmission swaps for my 50 Dodge Coronet 230 flat head.

I know there is the S-10 T5 option, and so far I am leaning in that direction.

What I would like to find out is if there are other transmissions that will work as as an easy swap. I'm not too concerned about power loss if there is a viable automatic that is essentially bolt in- Cant be worse the the gyro-matic!

I am keeping the internal motor stock, but thinking about a dual carb and split exhaust. I want to leave it 6volt as well.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

How about a Dodge toploader 3 speed? That's a bolt in option. I'm gonna be running one behind my 230 in my roadster as well.

Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!

 

I haven't seen anything on this one. I found info on Ford toploaders but not Dodge. Do you have any other info on it? part numbers etc.? Will it fit in with a bench seat?

Thanks

 

#1 easiest choice, keep the fluid drive. They are not the greatest for performance, but they are simple, reliable, and easy to fix. If you want to change it because you don't understand it, I can help you figure it out.

#2 3 speed manual trans as used in Plymouth and certain Dodge models. Straight bolt in swap if you get one out of a 50 Plym or Dodge

#3 3 speed plus overdrive manual trans. As above, but a lot harder to find.

#4 adapt a late model 5 speed

#5 They used Torqueflites on that motor from 57 - 59 and the similar, 2 speed Powerflite 55 - 59. An obsolete trans but a bolt on.

#6 A modern auto trans with an adapter. There are several makers of adaptations, I believe they cost from $400 to $500 plus transmission, driveshaft, etc. O ya, the new transmissions don't have the handbrake on them, so you have to change the rear brakes. It is easier to change the whole rear axle.

As you see there are various options at various orders of difficulty and cost. I like the 5 speed manual as it allows you to make the most of the limited power you have to work with.

But my first choice, if cost was an issue, would be to keep the stock trans.

 

QEC "73RR" has adaptors for the flatty.

 

You mention the S10, T5 option. The exact same trans was used in many vehicles over a period of years. Mustang, Camaro, pickups, vans, etc.

The reason for using the S10 model is that the gearshift lever is mounted farther forward than in the Mustang or Camaro models. But any pickup or van version will be the same. The forward gearshift location is a must for your car and for old cars in general.

 

Awesome! I also heard that there is a Ford Ranger/Mazda transmission that is used as well.

I should have mentioned that I was planning on disc brakes in the front, and a rear end swap for those reasons stated by Rusty. I understand that a cherokee or explorer axle is a good choice?

has anyone used these options?

 

there's a bunch of Threads talking about rear axles. 65-7 (or so) c body bolts in. A bunch of other Ford/Mopar will fit with a spring perch relocation. Cherokee. Explorer, 71-3 Mustang, 70s ranchero, duster amoungst them.

 

It's another way to say it's a "top shifter". They came in the Dodge trucks. I can't image it would interfere too much with the bench seat (all early Dodge trucks had bench seats too). Mine came from a light duty '51 Dodge pick up truck.

Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!

 

Another added benefit is the shaft with the clutch and brake pedals is all there on the bell housing (like a model A). No fabricating pedal brackets!

Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!

 

Have you considered the fact that if you swap your trans you will loose your E brake?? You will need to update the rear end also if you dump the original style trans or something similar.

 

Yes I understand that. I am also trying to figure out what rear end will work best.

I have had a few suggestions, but it looks like a later dodge rearend or jeep cherokee rear end are the preferred choices.

I guess I need to find out the width of the unit and where the springs attach to find which one will work best.

 

Im swapping a 1987 T5 S10 tranny into my 1940 Desoto coupe (same dimensions as a 40 plymouth coupe)
I used a 1973 B Body 8.25 rear end. The perches in the rear line up perfectly, the rear is 3/4 of an inch wider on each side but will still clear fenders.
Im going through the swap now let me know if you decide to also do the T5 swap I can share with you what I learned as far as tranny gear ratios, adapters, clutch plate, etc. etc.

 

when you talk about this T5 swap, are you saying that there is no adapter needed??

 

I've run the 40's Plymouth 3-speed & the 3-speed w/ OD on my 218, and my opinion is that the OD is wonderful on the freeway, but accelerating all that extra rotating mass steals your torque off the line. (Without much beneficial flywheel effect.)

In other words, with the OD you'll lose every drag race to the plain 3-speed.

 

I am going to use a Mopar 500 auto in mine. There is a guy on this site that sells the adpt for this. Mopar has the starter ring gear on the converter, so updating the starter is very easy. This even helps the flat head start in cool weather. A big problem for a flat head.

I was thinking about the emergency brake but than why?
In my day car with auto I do not set the brake unless it is on a hill. If you live in a hilly terrain than yes you need one. I will change the rear but it will be one of the last mods. As I plane on driving this across country, The Lord willing, just might need that brake.

Ed.

 

I will be using an adapter. I have seen it done without an adapter and if you don't mind doing some cutting and fab work on the bell housing it actually works better because the tranny shaft sits deeper towards the pilot bushing on the crank. A. Problem when using an adapter.

 

It is possible to do the swap with no adapter. You have to redrill and machine the bellhousing.

A quick web search turned up some interesting info

Putting a T5 in a 35 Plymouth, very detailed photo essay

https://home.comcast.net/~pjplymouth/t51935.html

Don Coatney's T5 swap illustrated

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DonCoatney/library/T-5?sort=3&page=1

 

This may or may not help !! Cass, alias littlemo...

 

One thing NOT mentioned in any of the above posts is the fact that your Dodge with Gyromatic (or with Fluid Drive too) DOES NOT share the same bellhousing as Plymouths of the same era. The Dodge bell housing is several inches longer than the Plymouth and that makes all the recommendations about "easy" swaps of Plymouth trans, or Ford/Mazda, S-10, etc.not applicable to your Dodge as presently configured.

The ONLY bolt in manual trans for your Dodge is a Dodge fully manual shift trans, NOT Fluid Drive, from a '53/'54 Dodge or Desoto......a trans that is very hard to come by. Of course, you also need a manual shift flywheel and clutch assembly.
The problem is that long bell housing... when the Gyro or Fluid Dr is removed it requires a much longer trans input shaft, and throw out bearing carrier/sleeve. The trans ITSELF is the same as Plymouth, but for the all important input shaft and bearing retainer. The good news is, little that there is, all the original stock clutch and shift linkages will work as is.

I have done a few of these over the years and am familiar with the issues involved.
To use a shorter input shaft Plymouth trans would require using a Plymouth or later Dodge ('55/'59) bell housing. That would also require moving the rear cross member forward as the back of the engine is supported by the bell housing.

For all that work, it may be a better option to use an adapter and install a later model manual or automatic and get better results for the money and effort expended.

 

Yes! that would be great. I think I have come to the conclusion the the T5 is the way to go.

I have been trying to research the dimensions on the rear end of my Coronet, but all I have is the the measurement from the outside of the frame(43.5"), and the width of the springs(1.75"). If the frame and shackes are the same, then I know how wide the spring perches need to be. OC measurement would be 42.625".

Does anyone happen to know what the width is from the backing plates?

I wonder if it is worth the time to modify the bell housing to eliminate the adapter.

 

Have you looked on the p15 site there's a thread called 5speed not t5. He puts a ranger transmission in. Doesn't seem like anything I home garage couldn't do other than machining the center of the bell. So the shaft will fit better.

Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!

 

Excellent advice. It seems that the S-10 T5 transmission is a good one to use and adapter plates are fairly easy to come by.

 

I am very fortunate that my dad had taken remarkable care of this car. He just had the engine completely rebuilt before he passed away. He also had it painted the original blue. The only weak link is the gyro-matic coupler, and transmission, which isn't shifting. It may be due to wiring- not sure yet. Oh yeah, and the upholstery is beyond shot!

Another question; I know it is supposed to shift at around 15 mph or so, but is that related to rpms or something with the speedometer? The reason I ask is that the speedo cable is broken.

...However, I still want it to be able to cruise comfortably on the freeway, and make the most out of the limited power of the flat head 6.

Here is a pic of the old girl;

 

If you go from a Fluid Drive to a manual trans, you need the manual trans, bellhousing, clutch, etc from a manual trans car.

As you point out the bell is longer on the FD, the clutch is smaller, the trans input is longer etc.

 

By "adapter", I mean an adapter plate that mounts to the engine block and uses a different bell housing and/or transmission in their entirety. Not an 'adapter' behind your existing bell housing.......perhaps you understand that, but just wanted make it very clear. The stock long bell housing is a real PITA for any upgrade other the near unobtanium '53/'54 Dodge/Desoto mentioned in my earlier post.

 

I have a '49 Plymouth 2 door with a Dodge 230 and a stock '55 Mopar 3 speed manual trans with O/D and stock rear end. I think the rear end is 3.90. I put this car together over 15 years ago. With the O/D engaged, it cruises very nicely on the highway at 60-65 mph and still has plenty of power for normal moderate hills on secondary roads without disengaging the O/D.

I also built many years ago, but have long since sold, a '51 Dodge Coronet Diplomat hardtop that was originally Gyromatic, like yours. I installed a 265 cube Chrysler 6 in that one and did the conversion to full manual trans with O/D on that one as well. That too, was an excellent highway cruiser. In fact, the 230 in my Plymouth came from that Dodge.

Even further back ('61/'62 era) , I had a '49 Dodge with Fluid drive and converted that to full manual shift. That is how I came to learn what parts are required to eliminate the semi-automatics.

If you do use a later model 5 speed O/D manual trans, S-10 or otherwise, you ought to consider keeping a rear end ratio in the 3.70 to 3.90 range to accommodate the engines horsepower and torque. At the very tallest, a 3.55 would, in my opinion, be the limit.

If you choose to use a 3 speed or 4 speed manual WITHOUT O/D, then something in the 3.07 to 3.55 range would be suitable.

 

So if I were to use a T5(with clutch/bell housing included), would I need to modify the existing clutch pedal/linkage/etc? I assume there would be some modification necessary.

I also am assuming that the rear mount/cross member may need to be addressed?

 

Yes, clutch release mechanism would need some adaptation. I think the S-10 typically is hydraulically actuated. However, that is included with the bell housing used on those vehicles, not specifically the transmission, unless you were using the S-10 NV3500 trans which has an integral bell housing. I would recommend NOT using the NV3500.

There are numerous 6 cyl ('63 up) and V8 Chevy bell housings that would be useable with the S-10 trans that use mechanical clutch release linkage. And you are correct in thinking a replacement engine/trans cross member would need to be fabricated or adapted.

 

Awesome info. Thanks guys.

Is there any way of using the existing rear end and adapting the brakes and e-brake, or is it just better to go with a more modern one?
(I think I already know the answer though)

Still wondering if anyone happens to know what the rear end width is(flange to flange)
on the original.