Technical Looking for transmission options for 1950 Dodge230 flathead

The width is about 60"' wheel mounting surface to wheel mounting surface.

There are numerous rear axles from Ford and Mopar that use the same wheel bolt pattern that are about the same width. Rear axle that is an inch less or more will not pose any problem. It will be easier to replace the rear axle than to try and adapt brakes from something else.

Jeep Cherokee and Ford Explorer both are the right width and readily available. However, there are many others that will work. But you want to get a gear ratio that is suitable as is and not have to change ring and pinion....that is too expensive when so many are available that have the desired gears.

 

I want to thank you guys and especially littlemo for posting that chart. I was ready to grab a tape and head for the junkyard to start taking stock of suitable axles.

 

I kicked around a T-5 out of an S-10. I also kicked around a 905.

The T-5 ... there is an adapter wilcap makes, and also Tom Langdons Stovebolt has an affordable option.

905 Wilcap made the adapter.

 

Thanks so much for all the ifo!

It seems I am pretty fortunate. I did a quick search of the local pick and pulls and found several S-10's from 1985-88 with the T5 trans. Even a few mopars for rear ends.

I know it is advisable to stay with a manual transmission with the flat 6's to get the most out of them, but are there any comparable newer automatic options? Still has to be better than the gyro-matic....

 

An A904 Torqueflite is an efficient automatic, .......also GM TH350 would be a viable choice. For the Mopar, there are two HAMB members, 73RR and TR Waters, who sell them.
Bendtsens in MN and WilCap offer kits for both, I believe

 

The Fluid Drive and M6 self shifting trans is a very rugged, reliable transmission. The trans itself is like a manual 4 speed with a little pump and hydraulic shifter. The Fluid Drive has 1 moving part running in oil and never wears out.

Most of the problems are in the wiring getting frayed, broken and messed up. Or the trans and Fluid Drive low on oil.

Also there is a special driving technique required, it is simple and can be learned in minutes.

If you want to keep the original trans you can probably get it working perfectly with a few hours effort and a few bucks, like $20 to $50 or less.

Do a search, there are several threads on Fluid Drive here. If you want to go into the gory details let me know.

Sorry I was so long answering but I missed this post the first time around.

 

Driving a Fluid Drive car.

It has a cross between a manual trans and auto trans, with characteristics of both. Driving is mainly like an automatic, with a few unique features.

Start off with the trans in neutral and the hand brake on. Start the engine and warm up for a minute until it will idle down. Step on the clutch, shift into HIGH range, release the clutch. You are now idling in gear. Release the hand brake and drive away like an automatic.

When you get going over 14 MPH lift off the gas pedal. You should hear a soft *click-clack* below the floor boards. You are now in High gear of high range, step on the gas and go someplace.

When you come to a stop the trans will automatically shift down. No need to touch the clutch, when the light changes step on the gas, take off up to 14 MPH or higher, lift off gas etc.

When you are in High, if you tramp the gas pedal to the floor it should shift down to low gear of HIGH range (3d gear) in other words, kick down like an automatic.

Gearshift position is like a 3 on the tree except there is no low gear position.

With gearshift in neutral -

Reverse is towards you and up

LOW range is straight up

HIGH range is straight down.

LOW range is for taking off on a steep hill, with a heavy load, for driving slowly thru deep snow, sand or mud or just driving slow. Start off in LOW range as you would in high. When you get going 6MPH or more, lift off the gas and it will shift up to High gear of LOW range.

To get into HIGH range from LOW, step on the clutch and shift the gearshift lever.

If the trans won't shift up, check the oil level in the trans. Fill with TDH tractor fluid, ISO32 or ISO22 grade. Or straight 10W motor oil. Same fluid or oil is used in the Fluid Drive unit which is filled separately.

 

Yeah. My dad had a 5 gallon bucket of ISO32. Thanks Rusty!

I was just out tinkering with it today, getting familiar with it. There are two plates on the passenger side. I know the small diamond shape one is for the coupler. Inside there is a cap. I removed the cap and spun the motor until I saw a nut, which I assume is the fill hole (stop me if I am making an error). Are your supposed to fill it up to that hole? Is there another plug? I seems that it would take a while to fill due to the proximity of the fluid coupler inside- like you would have to use a turkey baster...

I have not removed the larger plate yet. What will I find when removing that?

Also, I am not sure if this is normal, but there is a light directly under the key. When the engine is running, the light flashes.

 

The 200R4 is possible with an adapter. It is relatively smaller in size than most autos. The 200R4 designed for fuel economy so that it is more efficient. If I had the funds that's what I'd use with a flathead six.

 

Does anyone have experience with the 200r4 transmission coupled to a 230 flat head 6?

I am very interested to find out more info on this.

 

I have not used a 2004R with a Mopar flathead. But, the 2004R is a relatively efficient transmission in that the horsepower absorbtion is modest. The 2004R is the same overall dimensions as a TH350, although the rear mount is a bit farther to the rear. That's not a problem since you will need a new crossmember anyway.

One structural concern that is worth mentioning....with the motor mounts at the extreme front of the engine, and a transmission like the TH350/2004R or a 904 Torqueflite, having the rear mount pretty far back, there is a lot of weight suspended between those ends.

A mid mount would be helpful and some transmission adapters have provisions for that.

If you choose and overdrive automatic, such as the 2004R, or an A500 Chrysler unit, the rear axle ratio will need to be in the high 3's to low 4's to acccomodate the overdrive's effective ratio when engaged. For example, the transmission O/D ratio is close to .70.

Multiply .70 x 4.10 = 2.87 effective final drive. That is getting pretty tall for a 230 Mopar 6.

Another consideration is how you will use the car most often. If most driving will be in town, with some occasional highway driving, the O/D trans is of little value. Around town it will seldom be in overdrive as it usually requires about 40 to 45 mph to engage.

A 3.07 to 3.50 ish ratio with a non-O/D trans may perform best in those circumstances.

 

After tinkering and checking and filling, I took the Dodge out to test it. Although it was a kick to be able to drive it through town, it still isn't shifting.

-I checked all the electrical connections and made sure they were clean and tight
-I drained and filled the transmission and filled the coupler.
-I can hear the solenoid clicking when I let off the gas pedal to up-shift, and I can hear it click when it automatically id supposed to downshift.
-Still no shift. I guess it's back to the manual, and do some more testing.

I am glad I got the shop manual.

Still it was nice to finally be able to get it out on the street. I wasn't sure if I would get it back in the garage, but I had to take the chance. Living on a hill....

 

Find George Asche he has all the info on Mopar flat motors and trannys

 

I used to work at a Air base where a aircraft towing tractor they had was equipped with a Dodge flathead with a late model (60s 70s) TORQUEFLITE aluminum cable operated. This was made possible with a adapter plate. I've seen them on eBay before. Not easy to find but they are out there.

 

Okay, here is a different question;
Is there a positive and negative pole on the transmission solenoid? I know that DC solenoids on irrigation valves do, but i cannot see any indication of this on the tranny solenoid.

Also, I can't seem to find any detailed pics or diagrams on how the wires connect to the carburetor. I have the diagram, but it does not show if there is a specific side the the anti-stall, and..... if the wire that goes to the kickdown are connected on the same post.

 

The filler for the Fluid Drive is on the right of the driveshaft tunnel, below the dash board. Under the plate is the bellhousing, there is a round pop out plug in the belllhousing, with it removed you can see the Fluid Drive. Bump the starter until the fill plug comes in view. Stuff a rag around the hole, unscrew the plug, and use a funnel to pour in the fluid. It should not take much, when it overflows it is full. There must be some air space for proper operation, the filler is located with this in mind.

The other plate is farther back on the drive shaft tunnel, it exposes the transmission to view. Handy for checking or replacing the wiring, switches or solenoid and for filling the trans. To fill the trans there is a pipe plug about half way up. Take it out and pour in TDH ISO32 or 22 fluid until it drips out. Check the level with your finger, if you can touch the oil it is full.

Don't know what you mean by a light under the key. Old Chrysler products had a light bulb in the switch that was part of the dash light system, is that what you mean?

 

I don't think it matters which wire goes where on the solenoid as long as they are the right wires. In other words, I don't think there is a + and -. You could clean off the grease and look but I don't think they are marked.

There are 2 switches on the carb. One is actuated when you lift off the gas, it controls the normal shift. The other is actuated when you floor the gas pedal, it is the kick down. In other words 2 switches, throttle closed and throttle wide open. One at the top of the carb, the other at the bottom. This should be clear from the diagram in your manual.

The trans needs to be full of oil for the self shifter to work. You check it like any manual trans, at the fill plug on the right side of the trans. OK you already did this.

Incidentally the engine has to idle down real low or the trans won't shift. Normal idle speed is 400 RPM, about half the speed of a modern engine. If idle is too high the trans won't shift.

Even with the wiring controls off the trans should shift up but it won't shift down correctly. Not shifting up is usually due to low oil in trans or too high idle.

Fluid Drive questions should be answered on this board, the AACA

http://forums.aaca.org/f145/

In fact if you do a search your questions have probably been answered multiple times.

 

Hey Rusty,
Thanks for all the info!. I have already changed the oil in the tranny and filled the fluid in the coupler(which seems to have a slow leak).
I am in the middle of performing the electrical tests, all the wiring has been replaced, but it is not the original colors, so I have had to do a little translating. It seems the governor and solenoid check out on those tests, But i still have a couple of tests to do.

My carb has a "solenoid" looking device on the front side with two terminal connectors(I am guessing that is the anti-stall?), and a post on the back side with a screw at the end by the throttle mechanism(I am guessing this is the kickdown?). It only has one wire attached. I am thinking that there is a wire missing between there and the breaker.
My problem is that the diagram is not detailed enough to show any separation of connections, or distinction between the kickdown and anti-stall

More inspection and testing today.

 

Well it looks like the wiring is OK everything checked out except the interrupter switch, which doesn't give me that "faint glow" on the test light when decelerating.

Could that cause it not to up-shift? When I ohm it out, I get an open loop, when pressing the ball in, I get a closed circuit-very low resistance.

 

That sounds right, the interrupter is supposed to short out the coil for a split second while the trans shifts.

How is the idle speed?

This site has a lot of factory manuals and info on the Fluid Drive system.

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/index.htm#1949

 

The idle speed looks to be OK. The test light seems to bear that out according the the shop manual. Contacts look new in the governor. Solenoid checks out electrically. I think I may remove it and check the spring and ball.

As I read more, it seems that the interrupter switch is only energized when engaging the kick-down switch. I can get one for less than 20 bucks, so even if that isn't the problem, it's not a huge loss.

Hey, at the very least, I am getting a crash course in the workings of the Gyro-Matic Transmission.

 

You have already covered the cause of 99% of Fluid Drive - M6 problems. I am surprised it is not working. If you have to go any deeper you may want to take your questions to the experts at the AACA posted above.

 

Well, here I am at decision making time. I don't want to spend a lot of time on the gyro-matic.

I have decided that I am going to adapt a T5 and newer rear end in to the car. Since I do no have a place or the tools to do this myself, I am employing a local shop to do the work.
I want to save as much $$ as I can, so I will be gathering the parts myself..to the extent that I can.

So...I wanted to make sure I am covering as much as possible in that regard.

Please take a look at the list below and if you see something wrong or missing, let me know. I would REALLY appreciate it!

- T5 transmission from a Chevy S10 (1985-88); This would include the bell housing, clutch and ????
- an adapter plate
- A complete rear end from a Jeep Cherokee(1984-2001- preferably 8.25 Chrysler w/3.55)
- Spring perch re-location kit(do I need to do the same thing for the shocks?)

I know there is some fabrication involved(clutch mechanism; rear support for trans; new drive line; etc). Is there anything else I can or need to get for the shop to be able to do this so they have it on hand? Or is the rest pretty much fabricate on the spot as it comes up?

Thank you again guys for all the help and information! I have really learned a lot from all your posts.

BTW, If you get a chance, take a look at my album. Lots of pics of the Coronet from what my dad has already done.

 

Could you assemble the running gear (or at least trans & motor) outside the car yourself? That would save you from paying for research, which can get expensive.

Also, check on the p-15/d24 site for people who have done this before - one of them may have an exact part list.

 

If you go back to post #18 I linked 2 complete photo essays on doing the T5 install.

Or, the seller of the adapter kits should include complete instructions.

 

Mine has a wire from resister to solenoid on front of carb. This wire goes to outside post. A wire from inside post goes to solenoid on back of carb and has one coming from same post on back to the trans. The flashing light under ignition switch shows the hand brake is on. Hand brake has to work or car will roll away.

 

Wow! I need to head up north Sometime.. I dont find any manual speedo 83-88 T5 transmission down in So. Cal.
Let me know if you need a lead to a great source for the T5/Flathead adapter and related parts.

 

I read you story Kaddy. I really thought I was the only kid that got samcked for letting the flashlight drift. Ha!! that is so funny.

I am sure I will need some sources as soon as I start accumulating parts...which i am hoping is soon.

 

Sorry to resurrect this post, but I had a question regarding the 3 speed top loader Dodger transmission? I'm replacing the original fluid drive on my '51 desoto wagon and was just wondering how the column shift will work. Do I need a new column or can I use the original unit?