Looks like both front and rear springs are bolted to a plate that pivots further back on a through bolt. The vertical adjuster bolts with the locknuts are for ride height adjustment only, and will do that job just fine. If it were me, ***uming there is no bind or weirdness in the axle travel with things as they are (back off the friction shock pressure and check the suspension cycling), I would convert the friction shocks to function only as proper top links and add some tube shocks to do the damping properly. Address all brackets and bolts. Remove/modify spring leaves as required to get the desired ride.
I agree completely. If there are any issues that come up I can address them or worse case like you said I will convert it over. But after this many miles I think it will work at least for a while. I will just keep checking it and keep an eye on everything. I have already made some long road trips with no issues other than just the stiff ride.
The lever shocks in the pics in post #29 are certainly a better bet than friction shocks.... .... (or fiction shocks for want of a better name)...
In the pic of the little T, I'm not seeing anyplace for the 1/4 leaf-eye to move. Maybe I can't see it, idk. W/a set of 'bones as radius rods, the arc-angles of them & the leaves are fighting each other. Bad news. That style setup *needs* either shackles or a slider-point for the leaf to be able to properly flex. To the OP;. even if you like the current setup, I'd get a set of old-style leafs(could use either oem or re-pop A or T leaves) which are thin & narrow. You're going to have an interesting time tuning those wide & thick leaves, esp since they appear to be very short. Your "tuning" will be much easier, since adding/subtracting leaves won't change the spring-rate as much. I'm not sold on that friction-shock construction as it's used, but just watch it closely. Conveyor-belting makes a good friction-pad. But the old-style friction shocks used multiple layers(usually leather) of friction material & metal discs for better control. FWIW. Marcus...
I don't know anything about this style set up but do know you can't have 2 different length rods swinging on two different arcs as stated above and have anything connecting them swing. It would have to have a Give link somewhere and that will change the vertical angle (king pin) of whatever the two ridged rods are connected to. The way it's built now is just not functional as suspension.
It does look suspect. On the other hand, Kent Fuller did something that appeared similar on one of his dragsters. People quickly copied this idea, but it didn't work for them. Fuller used large dia washers, where the torsion arms attached to the axle. Part of their purpose, to to obscure the slots that allowed the suspension to move freely. Everyone ***umed he used round holes, and their suspension was bound solid.
I've seen them with sealed roller bearings and the slide is amazing and makes for a soft ride. I think the most common application used to be NASCAR.
welds need to not only hold the car together while peacefully driving down the road but also when you get in a wreck. you are going to be in deep doo-doo if you ever crash.... or even hit a big pothole. the rear suspension welds look terrible. also what pist-n-broke said. you need to redo where the pivot point on the ch***is for the "shocks" to where the pivot point of the springs is located. yor springs up front are short enough, I'd move that bolt that touches the spring back to where the "shocks" are. I am confused by what is going on in the back.VVVV
Some interesting stuff going on for sure. This made me laugh. Can’t see the thru bolt for the rear leaf pack, but seems they are rubbing a bit on the formed metal bracket. This might be contributing a bit to the stiffness. As mentioned previously, the execution and welding could have been better, but for sure someone had access to some pretty good metal forming tools, and you can see a lot of thought went into piecing together some of the suspension parts. If it’s held together this long, it’s probably fine, just needs some tweaking as you already know.
I agree. I can definitely tell there are multiple hands involved in this. Most everything is built really well and then there are a few things that just do not match the skill level or the level to attention as the rest. I will definitely be correcting some things and making adjustments as I go. If I am not happy with the way it's going or uncover to much hackery I will tear it apart and do a rebuild this winter.
Well oddly enough it works great and now with the friction shocks not gorilla tight the ride quality is a lot better. About what I would expect. The suspension travels freely with no binding and the car drives straight as an arrow. There is no crab walk, little to no bump steer and now rides a lot better with actual suspension travel. I am not debating if it is the best setup or if it is the best execution but I like it and it works. At least for now. I have put about 1500 miles on it so far and everything is working properly and even better now so I am going to stay with it until I see problems that I believe will be ongoing and unsafe.
Sounds like freeing up the friction shocks helped a bunch. But I agree with couple previous replies that the root cause of the problem is too short of springs. The effective length is from the heihht adjusting bolt to the eye. Combine that with 3 leafs and you have a very high spring rate. Try removing the shortest leaf.
The first item I would address is the friction dampers. Friction dampers do little, if anything to absorb road shock, as a shock absorber does. Correctly designed friction dampers use friction packs of ***orted friction material that is kept in compression using a wave spring, star spring and even conical springs. As the damper arm travels up and down, the friction material is squeezed by the springs to dampen movement, not absorb shock. What you have is simply two pieces of what looks like 1/4" flat stock, two pieces of rubber and a bolt and lock nut. Eventually the rubber will wear out and you have nothing but a pivoting arm.
Loosening the shocks may have freed up the suspension but it won't take long for the bolt holes in the frame mount to become egged out and wear into the bolts. Gary
Interesting. It appears that several experts commenting on the design and function of this suspension system have no idea how it works at all. The bolt through the leaf spring eyelets at the frame end of the springs are holding the spring to the frame, and the bolt p***ing through the leaf spring eyelets at the axle end is the only thing holding the front axle to the spring. Those two locations are the ONLY things holding the axle in its forward or rearward position (except the lever arms for the friction shocks), and many of you guys want to make the rear frame end of it a slider??? If there are rubber bushings with a steel sleeve that the bolt p***es through on the frame end of the leaf springs, those bushings will provide enough twist and movement to prevent damage. The axle end of the spring also has a bolt p***ing through brackets welded to the axle with bolts p***ing through rubber bushings in the spring eyelets. The suspension can only travel as far as the spring itself flexes, and the only concern about twisting would be if one side encounters a bump the other side does not encounter. The rubber bushings on each end of each spring will provide enough movement to handle that issue. The spring is anchored to the frame at the rear. The front is anchored to the axle at the front. There is an adjusting bolt that provides an adjustable height point and also serves as the pivot point that determines where the spring can flex from on the frame end of the spring. There is also usually a bottom stop block or another adjusting bolt under the spring at the same location as the upper adjusting bolt. The spring itself flexes area between the adjusting bolt with its bottom stop and the spring mounting point on the axle. The "friction shock" bars that are between the axle and at the frame (both ends are pivot points), are also used to set the caster the axle sets at and prevents the axle from flopping around on the leaf spring eyelets. The "friction shock" concerns? The simple fact it that since the "friction shock" bar is also the upper arm on a basic 4 link suspension. If one end of each side's upper link is used to provide a drag to slow movement, there really isn't a huge need for it to be overly aggressive. All that is needed with this set up is something to reduce the number of oscillations the frame will see when the spring flexes. Exactly how much oscillation do you expect to see with the short springs and the light weight car for on the street use? I wouldn't expect to see a lot. There is truth to the fact that if the bolt pinching the friction material is too loose, it may oblong the hole in the mounting bracket. But if its too loose, it won't function well, and just as the OP has discovered that bolt being too tight also doesn't work either. The material used as the friction material, and the tightness of the bolt applying the pressure are things that will have to be worked out for this vehicle and to suit the drivers needs. There is no one configuration that fits every application. From what I have read, I believe the OP has the competence to monitor the situation and make adjustments as needed. The car looks like a fun ride. This spring setup has been proven to function well over many years, it just needs to be dialed in for the car. Like every suspension set up in the world, it needs to be monitored for warn and loose parts.
Gary. The frame brackets welded to the frame for the friction shock arms are double shear. It is also possible that where the bolts themselves p*** through the arms are sleeved. The double shear and the sleeved bolts would prevent the holes from becoming egged out very quickly. I believe the bolts would have to be loose enough for the friction shocks to be ineffective before much egging of the holes can take place. The axle ends of the friction shock arms are mounted with Heim joints also in double shear. Heim joints fail as well.
I haven't read every post word for word, so if someone already commented on this, I apologize in advance.... Perhaps it is camera angle, but in the 2nd image, the grill guard seems to have less than an inch of ground clearance. If that is the case, the reason it rides rough is because there is NO FREAKING SUSPENSION TRAVEL. Get it to a proper ride height, with at least a couple inches of travel, and then worry about all the rest.
So if you hit a large pothole and ether sheared the 3/8" bolts in the friction damper or broke off the 1/4" plates that make up the friction damper mounts, what prevents the axle from rolling back or forward, the ty-rod or drag link? Doesn't sound too safe for me.
^^^^ Exactly. In the front, the shocks arms are setting caster and subject to impact with every pothole. In the rear, the arms are trying to control axle torque. Maybe they are bushed to prevent wear but I'm not seeing it. Gary
My Zipper had quarter elliptic suspension and friction shocks. I did replace the front friction shocks with MG Midget/AH Sprite hydraulic lever rear shocks and the ride was considerably better. I owned the car 25 years and replaced the friction pads at least twice.
1/4 elliptical springs were normal for many 20's cars from EnglandEurope some only had the springs holding the rear axle in place (with a torque tube or a control arm controlling the pivot) & Others have a spring & a shock similar in idea to this car. The idea isn't new, just different to many US built cars & there are probably reasons why they weren't used more widely, perhaps? It looks like @Larry627 has plans to tidy it up, sure there could be improvement, but I get the feeling he will be all over it
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