I have a 38 Plymouth coupe with the stock straight tube axle. Has anyone installed a independent front suspension on one of these? What kit or donor car did you use? Thanks in advance
Now that its here in the off topic section, the info will stay here. This is not a good topic over on the main board. If you can still find an early Dakota (88-96) frame that is not rotted out, they were a good choice to use as a front clip under your coupe. Those early Dakota's still had (or could easily be converted to) the 5 bolt lug wheels with the 4 1/2" bolt circle. The later years (97-03) had the 6 bolt wheels and are extremely hard to change to the 5 bolt wheels. Those are better left as 6 bolt wheels (they work as well, if the 6 bolt wheels are OK with you). After 03, the frames changed a lot, and are no longer an easy conversion. The Dakota frame will splice onto your existing frame at about the firewall nearly perfectly. If you splice it farther back, to say, the Dakota transmission cross member, it still works, but you get into your coupe frame's center "X" and extra work will be involved. The Dakota track width (how far the front wheels are from each other) is pretty close to being the same as your coupe's current wheel track, so the tires will set the same distance under the fenders (provided you use the Dakota wheels or Dakota replacement wheels). The standard wheels with the 4 1/2" bolt pattern will bring the front wheels closer to the fender outer edge. Wheel back spacing is important. A Dakota rear wheel drive frame has a rack and pinion steering, which eliminates the steering box interference with the any motor you choose. Moving the motor back on the Dakota frame is pretty easy, the steering rack is right behind the front crossmember, giving you wide open spaces under the motor. The connection between the column and the rack can be modified pretty easily with available steering shaft parts. An S10 will have a narrow wheel track and the tires will be way under the fenders, and the front mounted steering box can add some challenges. I've done both conversions, the Dakota is more simple if you can find a rust free frame (look a prospective donor's frame over good). Most of the real modern options have a vey wide wheel track (6+ inched wider). I have heard that some can be narrowed without a lot of problems, but I have no experience with them.
So I have a lead on a 98 Dakota running driving, using the front clip, engine/trans etc but, what about the rear axle also? Or should I go with the explorer rear end w/disc brakes instead?
Gene covered that. The donor you are looking at has 6 lug brakes that don't swap easily. So to use the front, it might be best to use the rear too, matching wheels, even if you are doing rubber rake (bigs and littles). I'd roll the dak in, use a plumb line to mark out the front frame and track, and also rear axle and spring mount locations. Roll the car into the front end and see where it matches up and then look at the rear spring mounts (don't worry about wheelbase, just match tire location), It's probably easier to hang the Dak axle on the car springs, but look at both ways and how the shocks mount, too. Trucks are typically spring over axle, cars spring under.
Concerning that rear axle, The 6 lug rear wheel drive Dakota has the axle above the leaf springs just like your 38 Plymouth, and most cars, would have. A Ford 8.8 is a good rear end, but if you use it, you will have 6 bolt front lug nut bolt pattern and a 5 bolt rear bolt pattern. A Dakota and a Viper are the only vehicles that use the Dakota 6 bolt wheel bolt pattern that I know of and it will be a major obstacle to try to convert that 98 Dakota to a 5 lug bolt pattern. I have no idea about the width of the spring width spacing of the 38, nor the Dakota spring with spacing. You will have to make those measurements. I would be surprised if both were the same, though there may not be much difference. One big difference is the 38 leaf springs are 2" wide, but the Dakota leaf springs are 2 1/5" wide. That may not be a huge deal, because it is very likely that to spring mounting pads on the Dakota rear end are probably not the correct distance apart to actually bolt on to the 38 leaf springs (the spacing between the two sets of springs is probably different, but maybe they are). This is a great point to actually inspect the 38 leaf springs to determine their condition. You will have 2 options. Use the 38 springs and change the spring perches on the axle (described below), or if the 38 springs are bad, remove the 38 springs and their mounting brackets from the 38's frame and replace them with the Dakota springs (if they are good). In that case I would see if you can mount the Dakota axle complete with its springs under the 38. You will probably need to make spring mounts on the frame for mounting the Dakota springs. Think spring relocation kits. The spring perches on the Dakota axle are welded to the axle tubes. If they are in the wrong location, they will need to be cut off the axle tubes, and new spring perches will need to be welded on in the correct location and at the correct pinion angle. When you buy the replacement spring perches, simply buy them for the 2" leaf springs if you are using the 2" wide leaf springs.
Fatman Fabrications sells a MII kit for your car. They are probably the best M2 kits out there. Give them a call.
I know this is an ancient thread I'm pulling up But would the front end info above also apply a four door sedan? Or to ask another way, from the cross memeber forward are the Coupes and sedans frames the same? Or possibly the entire frames the same? Thanks in advance.
Other then the length of the wheelbase (the distance between the front tire vertical center, and the rear tire vertical center), the frames between the coupe and the 4 door sedan are nearly the same, so the swap info still stands. Most of the coupes and the sedans of the same car line use the same front fenders. I would like to alter the info above concerning the Dakota rear axle in the older cars. The width of the Dakota rear axle is pretty narrow. I have, in the past run into the Dakota axle with the wheels bolted on, barely clearing the outside edge of the frames on some cars. They are all close, but some are closer then others. Some of the 97 to 03 Dakota 6 bolt factory mags have a deeper dish, which sets the tires out farther into the rear wheel well, which provides more frame clearance. If you run into that frame clearance with the 5 bolt axles, you can simply bolt a normal old rear wheel drive wheel (instead of using a Dakota steel wheel) on the axle to provide more clearance.
Thank you, yes the plan is to run the original 1938 wheels. I'm not opposed to using spacers if need be. Thanks again!
Your 38 has 5 bolt wheels with a 4 1/2 bolt circle, correct? So I assume you have a front clip (or chassis) from an 88-90 Dakota with the 5 bolt wheels, or a 91-96 Dakota with the 6 bolt wheels that can be easily converted to the 5 bolt? The 97 and newer Dakota donor will not convert to a 5 bolt wheel easily. If your plan includes the Dakota rear end, you really will want to measure the width of your 38's body/frame in the rear axle area and compare to the width of the Dakota. You may want a wider rear axle then the Dakota is.
I don't have a donor yet, trying to get my ducks in a row before purchasing a donor. Thanks for your input and help.
Good luck with your donor search. The primary rust areas on the 88-96 Dakota is behind the trans crossmember where it converts from the full boxed frame to a "C" channel. That is behind the point you would use it as a clip. The next most common issue is with the bottom of the boxed frame behind the front wheels. That can be repaired pretty easily but cutting the bottom out and replacing it with 11 gauge (1/8") plate. If you have never done a clip before, the rear wheel drive Dakota frame has the front frame horns kicked outward. I normally cut them off in front of the front spring spring pocket where they start to kick outward. I leave the Dakota's original radiator support mounting holes in front of the spring pockets and use those to mount a radiator support for your coupe. Then you need to fabricate front frame horns and front bumper mounts. The 3 vehicles below, a 48 Plymouth business coupe, a 39 Dodge pickup, and a 449 Dodge pickup are all on full Dakota's chassis. The first 2 are rear wheel drive, the last one is a Dakota 4x4 chassis. these were just 3 of the vehicles I've built using a Dakota frame.
Gene, first thank you for taking the time to respond. You've helped a ton. All 3 of your vehicles look great and have helped me decide this is the direction I'm going to go. I also would like to go Full frame. My question is how close is the wheel base,,, I have no problem moving the rear end forward or backwards unless its a close fit, in which case I'd ask you, is there difference in short bed and long bed wheel bases. Again, I want to pick up the right donor first time around. Thanks for all the help. -Terry
Terry, The Dakota trucks came in several different wheel bases. I don't have the number on hand right now, but the standard cab short bed was the shortest wheel base. Then was the standard cab long bed. Then was the extended cab short bed. Then the after 97, the Durango brought on another wheel base, and then the quad cab trucks came along. Choose a frame with the wheel base as close to what you need to start with. I believe is easier to shorten a longer frame then it is to make a frame longer. The coupe and the little orange truck were both built off of a standard cab, long bed frame. Rather then moving the rear axle, I cut the frames just behind the rear cab mount, removed around 7" of the frame (that was in 2011), and welded them back together (I owned a welding shop). The reason I did that was so I could use as much of the donor truck as possible. By cutting and removing what ever was needed to be removed, then weld back together, only fuel lines, brake lines, and a drive shaft (and the bed floor, if used) needed to be modified. Things like the Dakota's fuel tank remained in it original position on the frame, and I didn't have to be concerned about the frame kick up over the rear axle. The 4x4 frame under the blue truck already had the wheel base modified, and came with the truck when I bought the project. (I bought the 49 sheet metal on its original, twisted 49 frame, and the rolling, already shortened Dakota 4x4 frame (it was nicely done). One thing you do need to keep in mind, as you move towards the rear on a Dakota frame, it drops down after the front suspension (like most frames), and the 88-2003 frame rails remain basically flat and straight until they kick up before they go over the rear axle. The Dakota frame remains at the elevated height to the back bumper, it does not drop back down like a lot of frames do. You will have to adjust the rear floor height to accommodate the rear frame kick up, its about an 8" kick up. If you use the Dakota fuel tank, it sits in front of the frame kick up, so that elevated floor has to start farther forward then just at the frame kick up. Posted is a picture of a bare Dakota 4x4 frame. There are 3 crossmembers in front of the rear end. The hardest one to see is the one closest to the rear end, it is the torsion bar crossmember, it is not present on a rear drive frame. The next one forward is the bolt in trans crossmember, the rear drive trans crossmember bolts in the same location, but is slightly different. The crossmember in front of it is a 4x4 only crossmember and is not present in a rear drive frame and is in front of where the firewall would be. From the firewall back (near the red broom handle, on the right frame rail you can see the front body mount, which is right at the firewall location) the frames are pretty much the same. In this picture you can see the upside down U attached to the frame forward of the rear frame kick up. The front of the Dakota fuel tank is strapped to this U shaped piece. That bracket directly in front of the U piece is the actual front mounting point for the truck bed. That bracket is cut in 1/2, the missing 1/2 was the rear cab mount. This is the place the frame was shortened. This is a 4x4 frame, so the rear axle is bolted under the leaf springs, a rear wheel drive frame has the axle bolted on top of the leaf springs. Here is a Dakota fuel tank mounted on the shortened Dakota frame. In this pic, the cab is not in position, it still needs to come down about 6"! The high notch in the back of the cab has about an inch of clearance to the top of the fuel tank when the cab is in position. That cab floor sits 1' above the top of the frame rail when the cab is bolted down.
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