Is there anyone on the forum interested in some old blueprints? I believe they are from Bendix on transparent type plastic.
For sale? I collect Bendix Electrojector documentation for the '58 Chrysler, Desoto, Dodge and Plymouth. I am VERY interested.
My dim memories say that this was the ancestor of nearly everything in production now...the first (small!) production electronic FI, workable but doomed by the vulnerabilities of pre-solid state widgets. Rights were sold by Bendix to Bosch, which was soon to be boosted by solid state inventions that made it all much more practical. Izzat so?? If it is, this stuff is not just an interesting spec of lost history, it is groundbreaking... Gotgas...do you actually have one of these things?
Bruce I think you are exactly right. I have worked a little bit with the early Bosch stuff and it can be a little finicky, the digital age really made electronic injection come alive but were it not for the pioneers I don't believe it would be what it is today. I would be interested in seeing the early prints, I would not want the mylar because I am not a collector but a copy on paper or even a look on line would probably blow my skirt up real well.
" Rights were sold by Bendix to Bosch, which was soon to be boosted by solid state inventions that made it all much more practical. Izzat so??" I am not sure there was direct path to Bosch. While they utimately may have ended up with the Bendix stuff, Bendix engineers actually started their own company to improve the technology and it eventually went to Allied Signal. Does anyone have a date for when Bosch may have started involvement with the Bendix EFI ?
Bosch units were actually being used in the '50s. The ones I fooled with were later '60s and earlier '70s and allied signal makes bombs not EFI and did not exist until 1985. They came about by merger between Allied Corp and Signal Companies.
"Bosch units were actually being used in the '50s. " Well, let me see what I can find to support my statements. I may be mistaken on my "Allied Signal" memory. So, you are saying Bendix and Bosch existed at the same time? Are the Bosch and Bendix EFI systems the same technology? I guess I am asking what supports the statement that Bendix 1950s EFI became Bosch EFI? Here are a couple of the prints....I have several hundred and a pretty good accounting of where the Bendix technology went. No the dates on these are from the late 1950s.
Yes and yes. You are absolutely wrong about allied signal, they have a big plant here in the city and operate under the guise of making electronic brake controls. I still remember when they became Allied Signal. You don't have to have a security clearance to design or build brake parts. LOL If you go back a couple of years here there was a major discussion on the whole efi thing and its origins complete with documentation and photos of automotive units. The reason I remember so well is that I didn't think that it was being done prior to the units used in German cars in the later '60s and earlier '70s.
I believe Bendix was bought by Allied Corp. in the 80's. Bendix had already acquired Fram and Autolite by then and they went with the deal. Bendix was into avionics which is why Allied was interested in buying them..
Many earlier Bosch systems, "-tronic" in the name notwithstanding, were no more electronic than the cold start system being triggered by an electric thermal switch.
Earlier Bosch injections were rather similar to diesel tech, I think...there was a big mechanical pump with all sorts of sliding cams and mechanical widgets to vary fuel delivery with load and RPM. Ak Miller adapted some of these things in old Rod & Custom articles, but it was pretty clear things like the 8 cylinder Bosch were insanely expensive and that if you weren't actually Ak you weren't likely to get it to work! Electronic and mechanical rigs overlapped for a while at Bosch, while the electronics were still very expensive. I think that in the Rabbit and Fox era they made simplified mechanical rigs with stuff like a moving air flap to measure breathing. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Bendix tech went to Bosch when Bendix was moving away from the auto business toward aerospace and also losing interest in all the failing components, but don't really know.
Bendix was already under the umbrella of one of the two merging companies, when Allied Signal came into existence in '85 the plant here was a Bendix plant and became Allied Signal @ the same time in '85. None of this has any bearing on the EFI that was experimented with in the '50s and then not used for a very long time in the American automotive industry. It is interesting information by the way. Glad I got to see it.
Is anyone familiar with the Allied Signal facility in Mt Clemens, Michigan? I think that's were the EFI stuff from Bendix went...
You guys are probably right, the guy I got the prints from was rather old, but I don't ever recall his memory to be incorrect. Can anyone help identify these?
My teacher always said I was full of useless information. You are right, I looked it up and the Bendix buy out by Allied Corp. was in 83 and the merger was two years later with the Signal Corp. I remember doing some research on Autolite plugs and Bendix came up. I think Honeywell was part of Allied Signal also.
By the later '70s most companies that we deal with had merged and become very large conglomerates. We still buy parts with known names on the box but they are all part of the bigger picture. Honeywell is part of the allied signal corp as well I think. I am not sure who's umbrella they were under prior to the merger or if they were just an acquisition. Check your PMs
Bosch made various types of injection including the first electronic fuel injection on a production car, the 1968 Volkswagen Type III aka squareback VW. I know Bendix Electrojector was offered on Chrysler and Rambler in 1958 but did any reach the hands of the public? I believe a handful were made but were quickly recalled and replaced with carburetors. The Bosch system used by VW has obvious similarities to the Bendix system. I can't prove Bosch copied Bendix but it seems very likely, either under license or otherwise. Since they sold the system in the US they must have gotten permission to use the Bendix patents. The Bosch system was not without flaws. I know at one point they started wrapping the wiring in tinfoil because it was picking up radio signals which interfered with the signals to the computer. The computer itself was not so much a computer as a control module and resembled the insides of a transistor radio. I used to work on them, and have a few parts laying around still. Here are some schematics if you wish to compare the Bosch system to the Bendix. http://www.vwtype3.org/literature/clymer/service/Clymer.1972.07.pdf http://www.allpar.com/cars/desoto/electrojector.html
I was working for a Volkswagen Regional Distributor when the Bosch system was introduced on the VW Type III. We operated technical training classes for mechanics in our four State area of responsibility and I attended many of those classes and later taught some of them. The system really wasn't all that complicated when explained in class. The system was, however, prone to develop drivability problems and many techs in the field did not follow prescribed diagnostic procedures and resorted to changing parts until it ran right again. I don't know what percentage of warranty parts we processed were actually faulty......but my guess would be about 50%. As with most new technology, the systems were improved and went on to become the highly reliable, and highly beneficial, EFI that is universal these days. Ray
With all that's changed in the automotive world since 1968, this process is still in common usage. But in many shops your check is smaller for doing the diagnosis than it is for repairing something two or three times till it's right.
Everybody blamed the computer. It was never the computer. I was the FI wizard because I had the factory manuals and just cookbooked them together. There were only 4 or 5 inputs, throttle position, temp, atmospheric pressure, etc and then there was an extra set of points in the distributor, under the regular set, to trigger the FI. The problem was almost always a loose or frayed wire, adjustment, vacuum leak, leaky fuel line or some trivial thing but everybody wanted to put on a $400 computer. I used to sell used ones for $100 bucks. (I know it wasn't really a computer but that is what everyone called them). Cadillac put the Bosch system on the Seville in 1976, I believe this was the first American car with EFI after the Chryslers.
I'd think it likely, as Bosch had at least three FI systems working on at least three different principles.
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