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Technical 1953 Ford flathead T5 conversion

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 53FordCustomline, Feb 23, 2015.

  1. Hi, My name is Steve and I'm kind of new to this board and would like to pick your brain a bit. So I am ready to finally do the T5 swap and have ran into a snag. During the removal of the transmission and bell housing I noticed a issue. My bell housing uses the fork style that comes out the driver side. The kit I ordered from speedway is meant for 1932-1948 which uses a fork style that sit in the middle of a shaft but says it will work with a 1953 if I use a 1952 truck bell housing ring with starter plate which I bought on Ebay. Anyone have any suggestions or info on what i can do to make this work?
    Here is the kit I bought below.
    http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Chevy-T-5-Transmission-to-Flathead-Adapter-Kit,35584.html

    Thanks, Steve
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  2. Here are some photos of my bell housing.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 9,552

    manyolcars

    maybe Flat Ernies threads will help you. google
     

  4. I'll check it out. Thanks
     
  5. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 2,326

    1946caddy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from washington

    th (5).jpg I guess I don't understand your problem. But I'll try and explain what I think it is. Up until and including 1948, the rear of the flathead block had the truck adapter built into the back of the block and as such, the speedway t-5 tranny adapter would bolt directly to the back of the block. Beginning in 1949 ford shortened the blocks and now they used a truck adapter that bolts to the back of the block and in effect you have the same exact setup except there is now a 3" truck adapter where there was part of the block before. You would now bolt your speedway t-5 adapter directly to the 3" truck adapter.
    You do not use your 52 bell housing. The pictures look like a bell housing, not a 3" adapter ring
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  6. Doc.
    Joined: Jul 16, 2005
    Posts: 3,558

    Doc.
    Member Emeritus

    1946 caddy has you sorted out. Just be sure when you buy the truck or Mercury bellhousing that you get the starter plate with it. There are many different flathead started plates and they are specific to each bellhousing. Good luck
     
    jamesd1502 likes this.
  7. 1946caddy, I did buy a 1952 truck bell housing ring and start plate from eBay. The picture of the bell housing I posted was just a reference that it uses a different clutch fork assembly then what the adapter kit comes with. ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1424789988.227921.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1424790014.259222.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1424790268.876005.jpg
     
  8. Just trying to avoid making some sort of linkage to adapt to what's existing in my 1953 Ford Customline.
     
  9. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,855

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    I think it would be easier if you find an adapter from the T5 to your existing bellhousing instead of using the adapter you have, which uses a rotating shaft linkage. This way you can use your existing clutch linkages.

    There must be someone fabricating T-5 to early Ford narrow pattern bells.
     
  10. Mike51Merc, I agree with 100% although I can't seem to find a company that makes one. All of the plates are similar to 32-48 style bells or the GM style which does look similar with the fork coming out the side but not sure how close it would be.
     
  11. jseery
    Joined: Sep 4, 2013
    Posts: 743

    jseery
    Member
    from Wichita KS

    Believe you can use just a plate adapter and use your existing bellhousing. The photo posted is just an example, not sure it is the correct plate. Cornhuskers are good to talk to also might check with Wilcap. Also need to know the bolt pattern on your T5, Ford/late Chevy or early Chevy.
    Edit: The Speedway adapter you posted the photo of has the early Chevy T5 bolt pattern, if that is the correct pattern, then you need an adapter plate with the same pattern. Both of the examples I posted are with the Ford T5 bolt pattern. There should not be any problem finding a Chevy bolt pattern adapter plate to mate with your bellhousing as the Chevy pattern is much more common. The adapter plate would be a far easier way to go.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  12. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,855

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Take measurements of your existing pattern and start talking to the adapter guys. jseery is right, go to Cornhuskers. Also go to www.moderndriveline.com
    I'm no expert in Ford trans patterns, but you may have an early narrow toploader pattern there. If not, you may be able to drill the bell or the adapter for a later Ford narrow pattern to make it work.

    Oh yes, I forgot, you need to know which T5 pattern, too.
     
  13. jseery
    Joined: Sep 4, 2013
    Posts: 743

    jseery
    Member
    from Wichita KS

    Well, this is strange. I was going to find a Chevy pattern adapter plate for you and all I can find are Ford pattern! A few months ago it was the other way around. I know they are out there, just having a hard time finding them. I was told that Wilcox has them but they are not shown on their site, you have to call them. They are fairly easy to make if you want to go that route, let me know I made my own and have helped several other people make them.
    Gary at Cornhusker 402-749-1932
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  14. Mike51Merc- The T5 is an 84 s10 which I believe still used the GM bolt pattern at that time.

    Jseery- I have an email placed with transmissionadapters.com so I will see what they say about it. Sent over photos of my bell housing. If that doesn't work I contact you and maybe go over doing it myself although I am limited to the material and fab knowledge. Thanks
     
  15. jseery
    Joined: Sep 4, 2013
    Posts: 743

    jseery
    Member
    from Wichita KS

    It is fairly easy if you have a machine shop near by. They bore a hole through the plate to clear the T5 retainer. It has a step in it so that the larger opening fits the T5 front bearing retainer and the through hole (just clearance for the T5) leaves enough material for the machine work on the other side. On the bellhousing side they mill a lip to fit the bellhousing opening. By placing the plate on the bellhousing they can use the existing holes to mark the hole pattern onto the plate. By placing the plate on the T5 they can use the existing holes to mark the hole pattern onto the plate. That is about it. I attached an example someone built (not me). It is the Ford bolt pattern and both the transmission and bellhousing use the same bottom holes. Yours would be the Chevy bolt pattern and have four bellhousing holes and four transmission holes. The four transmission bolt holes get counter sunk and the four transmission holes tapped to the transmission bolt size/thread. That's it, fairly easy. Only other items to be concerned about is the correct pilot bearing size in the end of the crankshaft for you T5 input shaft and maybe a sleeve on the T5 bearing retainer for the throwout bearing.

    Edit (additional information): The plate used starts out as 1.0 inch thick. The Machined lip on the bellhousing side is .125+ which leaves the finished plate between 11/16 & 3/4 inches thick.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
    QcATudor likes this.
  16. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,855

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Steve,
    Just a bit of a sidenote: What transmission was originally in the '53 Ford? Do you know your rear end ratio? If it was originally an overdrive, you have to rethink the S10 T5 gearset because most of those have a 4.03 first gear which is going to be really really low in combination with the OEM Ford rear end.
    Your choices are to swap rear gears or swap trans gears otherwise your 5 speed is really going to be a 2nd-5th four speed.

    Oh, and another thing (maybe jseery can help) but you need also to be sure about the thickness of the adapter to mate the S10 T5 input shaft to your pilot hole.

    I know that the Ford T5 input shafts are 5/8" longer than the old Ford toploaders, but I'm not sure how long the S10 input shafts are, but I believe they're even longer than the Ford shafts. You also need to hunt down the correct pilot bushing for your crank and the S10 input pilot.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  17. Jseery- That's looks like what I'm looking for. I'll call around town to see who can help.

    Mike51Merc- I noticed that problem after I pickup a transmission. 1352-042 1984 - 85 S10 2.8 V6
    4.03
    2.37
    1.49
    1.00
    0.76
    That's what I have to work with for now. Guess I'll be starting out of 2nd gear. I am running 670-15 tires but not sure if that will help any. I'd rather change the gear in the rear opposed to that transmission of possible. And I'm not sure what gear ratio the 53 ford Customline has currently.
     
  18. jseery
    Joined: Sep 4, 2013
    Posts: 743

    jseery
    Member
    from Wichita KS

    That's what's nice about the Mustang T5s, 2.95 1st gear!
     
  19. Jserry- I agree with you but I wasn't sure if I could swap out the tail housing with a S10 style so that the top loader would be right.
     
  20. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,855

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Most Mustangs had the 3.35 first gear.
    Steve: If the '53 has the remnants of the OD system, like the pull handle or the relay on the firewall, it is probably a 4.10 or 4.11 rear (I think it depends whether it's a Dana 44 or otherwise), and your tires won't help a combined 16.5:1 first gear ratio, 'cause that's nearly rock-crawler territory. If I were you, maybe you should look into getting a cheap Ford T5 with the 3.35 or 2.95 gearset, then you hybrid the S10 rear half to the Ford front section. Look it up, it's done all the time and I have one like that with the 2.95 gears. If you do that, your adapter and pilot problems will go away too. Better now than later.
    If you put in that 4.03 first gear, you'd have to swap rears to about a 3.00:1 to make a combined 12:1 first. If you put a 3.00:1 rear, then your 0.76 T5 overdrive gear will be useless on the highway and then you'll have a 1st-4th four speed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  21. Mike51Merc- Any info on what year mustang T5 I should look for that will combine with the 84 S10 T5 I currently have? Is this something I can take on myself? Thanks
     
  22. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,855

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Steve,
    I'm no transmission expert, I just made sure I "boned-up" on this stuff to avoid expensive mistakes before I did my swap. I have good 30+ year hobbyist mechanical skills and I could probably have done it myself, but I had my hybrid built-to-order by a transmission guy I know, mostly from cases he had lying around with new parts thrown in. Look around this website and others for guidance from guys that have done it.
    That being said, I believe (but I may not be 100% right) that you have to match world-class (WC)with world class and NonWorldClass (NWC) with NWC, other than that, anything goes. The reason I'm not 100% sure is because I know you can swap some WC parts into NWC cases, for example I have WC synchronizers (and maybe a WC mainshaft and gearset, I forget) in my NWC case.

    I see Mustang T5s all the time on Craigslist and ebay for reasonable prices. As for which particular one I think I'd think I'd look for a NWC to mate with your NWC S10, unless someone who is sure tells you that a WC will work for you. As far as dollars go, it's practically less expensive to swap a transmission than it is to swap a rear end.

    Take a look here for a wealth of T5 info: http://www.scribd.com/doc/23066559/T5-Model-Identification

    Regarding gear choices, you need to learn your rear end ratio before you go further unless you just plan on swapping the rear anyway. There should be a tag on one of the cover bolts that recites the ratio. You take your trans gear ratios and multiply them by the rear end ratio for combined ratio. You don't want a combined number higher than 11:1 in first, especially with a low revving flattie. You should visit a website with a gear ratio/rpm/tire/speed calculator to determine what gears would be ideal for you. Remember your flattie is a torquey cruiser and not a revver like an SBC or SBF.

    I matched a 2.95 first gear with a 3.80:1 rear for a combined 11.21:1 with a Ford 302.

    By the way, you can get a Chevy to Ford conversion speedometer cable at modern driveline.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  23. jseery
    Joined: Sep 4, 2013
    Posts: 743

    jseery
    Member
    from Wichita KS

    Try this chart. I will edit the post above #15 to include plate thickness. Swapping the tailhousing is fairly easy.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  24. Thanks for all the info so far guys. You are saving me some major headaches. Nothing's ever that simple. Might end up just adapting a th350 trans and call it a day but I've kind got my heart set on the 5 speed.
     

  25. - Thats helps big time. Still need to figure out if a WC ford t5 will work with NWC s10 tail housing or if ford used a NWC t5 and what years.
     
  26. jseery
    Joined: Sep 4, 2013
    Posts: 743

    jseery
    Member
    from Wichita KS

    You really don't want a NWC T5, I believe the tail housing is interchangeable. There is a lot of info online and the HAMB about switching the tailhousings (also requires the top cover or at least the shifter rod out of it). Later Chevy T5s also have the Ford pattern and some have good gear ratios.
     
  27. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,855

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
    TH350 on a Flattie? Heresy! I'm not sure that can even be done.
    You think you have a headache now?
    We've got you rounding third and heading for home. I've heard stories of guys going to junkyards, picking out S10 and Mustang transmissions and performing the swap in the yard so they only have to buy one tranny! How hard can it be?
     
  28. So what your saying is this transmission is useless? Lol cost me about $450
     
  29. Mike51Merc- lol just read your message as I sent the last one.
     
  30. Got a headache now... Lol
     

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