This is driving me crazy! I have a 12 volt neg ground generator that has been rebuilt and a new regulator (not sure it's the right one - we matched up specs at the parts house). I suspect the regulator is bad, wrong, or I do not have it polarized correctly. The battery is showing 11.9 volts at idle and no more as I rev it or drive it. With the lights on it falls to 11.6 volts. I cannot see the lights get brighter as I rev it. When running, the ammeter shows a little on the negative side and goes to -15 with the lights on? I'm not even sure I have the ammeter wired right? I have the Battery side going to the negative side of ammeter and positive ammeter out to fuse box? Are all Chryslers internally grounded (Type B)? And if so then the proper way to polarize is to disconnect "field" at regulator and touch to "batt"? (but I found one source that said for Chrysler Type B to jumper from "batt" to "Amm".) Dazed and Confused???
I'd have to look in my old books to see exactly what to jump to polarize, on that Chrysler generator. But when you mentioned having an ammeter... there is some chance it's burned out. If it was reverese wired, it would just read backwards, but it would still be charging 13.5 or more at the battery. If you have a test light you can check the ammeter.( with car not running) Who knows how the car is wired, and it might be wired goofy with a backfeed on one side, so I would disconnect the opposite side terminal from where it gets power from the battery. Then if it now still has power at both terminals, it is not burned out. If it was burned out, the battery will not charge, even if the gen is good. If nobody helps with the generator polarize test, I can look it up in the AM. ... or sometimes there are Utube vids on how to do different brands of cars.
Basically you have to connect the Field of the generator to battery power to polarize it. Leave it on for 3 or 4 seconds. Exactly how, depends on the make and model of the generator. To find out if the generator is working you can connect the field straight to the battery while the engine is running. It should go to full voltage. If not the generator is at fault. If the gen is good it must be the regulator or possibly a wiring fault.
F&J, I ran out and did as you said. I have 12.5 volts on both sides with the regulator side disconnected, so the ammeter should be good. Ok looking at this schematic, I figured out that this generator is an externally grounded field making it a Type A, so 2 of 3 sites tell me to polarize it by momentarily jumpering the Batt to Amm, which I did. Still the same result with only 11.5 volts at battery while running. Then while running above idle, I checked the voltage at the generator Arm pole and it read .50 volts? Should this have been more or do I have to ground the Field pole to see more volts?
If you are sure the field gets grounded to create charging, (like the VW bugs) then yes, if you ground it for just long enough for a test, it should make the generator "run wild". Meaning it can go over 20v. ...test at least 1800 rpm or like 50mph speed if you don't have a tach. Don't ground it any longer than that, and it should have the F wire disconnected from the regulator to do the test.
Let me add; This stuff was taught at VW school Take the BATT wire off the generator and then hook the voltmeter to the post. Then take off the F wire. Then rev the motor up while grounding the F post for a split second as you watch the voltmeter. If you see the volts climbing quickly past 14, then stop the grounding...it's fine. You could damage it if you left it grounded way too long.
Did as you said and saw 17 volts before I disconnected, so looks like the generator is good. Onto the voltage regulator - I took it out and pulled the cover off and everything looks good -written on the side of the regulator was 12 volt neg/pos so I am thinking I have the right one. The only thing that I can think that I missed was running a ground wire from the gen back to the voltage regulator? I had just grounded to the block thinking it was internally grounded? Not sure if it makes a difference, is there a way to test the VR?
I will try to look it up in my old books on the Chrysler system. Sometimes it is a very drawn out procedure, so I will see if I can find something easy. Basically, in most regulators, there are 2 "halves". One side is what controls the amount of charging by having a set of points that flutter very rapidly. The other side is a "cut out", which also has points. It cuts the connection when the car is off, so that the generator does not try to act like a motor.
My old Motors manuals all give advanced tests for setting the voltage and current with special things like a reostat and a fixed resistor... No help there. One important thing is the basic wiring hookup. Make sure the F wire from reg goes only to the F on the gen, also the same with the armature wire from reg to gen. Nothing else gets hooked to these. Now check the BATT wire from reg, it should go through the ammeter and then on to the battery at some point. Try this page from the Imperial club. It, as well as Motors, warns of arcing the wrong terminals on the regulator, which will cause the point reeds to burn out. I don't know what jumping you have done at the regulator. Also note that is says the case of the regulator needs a good ground. http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Electrical/generator.htm I'd be taking the cover off, and look closely at all the contacts in there. Some are double stacked contact; meaning the point arm is contacting one point when open, and contacts another lower point when it is pulled down by the electromagnet coil. Just look for anything burned, discolored.. Let us know what's up, and I could search google some more. Oh, is this Autolite gen??
I read through the Imperial page today and yes it is Autolite. I looked inside the VR last night. I saw nothing burnt and contacts all looked good and had movement. I am going to check it with the ground on the regulator and see what happens?
I did see a part number for the reg in the old Motors manual. I was looking under 57 58 because you have that size engine, It did not give a brand, just the number.
Well the grounding did not help. I rechecked all my wiring and it is right, so I ordered a new voltage regulator from NAPA. I am curious though, can someone explain why you polarize generators differently? Is it due to the make of the gen or does it have to do with pos or neg ground? Just want to get this right in my mind Batt to Field - makes the field positive and arm neg? Batt to Arm - makes the arm positive and field neg? By the way F&J, I appreciate all your help!
Positive or negative systems can be either type of fields. Some systems produce the power from applying voltage to the fields, like Fords, and some produce the voltage by applying ground to the fields. I recently worked on a Lucas 12 v Positive ground system, in a German car (good grief), that sat for 20 years. It would not polarize by info on the net, or by info from a local elderly generator shop owner. I finally found a web post from a Lucas guru, who said that if the residual magnetism has gone away, you must run that generator as a motor for a few seconds to get it back I did that and it woke up the generator..... But then it still would not charge the battery because I later found the VR points to be corroded from sitting. Cleaned them up and it's mint. With the multiple warnings in the old books and on that Imperial site about the possibility of shorting the Autolite systems, I'd only do it right by the book. If you don't have the info, I can take a pic of that section.....but with your generator producing, I would not repolarize it...I don't see the need. I just hope you get the correct regulator...the other one is puzzling on the 12v pos or neg capability. Not saying it's not true, I just never saw that before.
I have an old Borg-Warner regulator in the box, R-183, and searching the part number came up for Chrysler, Dodge, DeSoto, Plymouth 56-60 and Stude 56-63, or thereabouts. Should be a fairly wide application.
Thanks for all the help guys. Looking at this web site leads me to believe that even though we matched the Vr to original spec's we got a ford based VR, when I needed an autolite based. Anyway, I should have the new VR within the week and I just remembered that I still have an original one hooked to a '57 354 so I'll clean it up and try it. If it works I'll have a spare! http://www.vintagejeepparts.com/PDFs/INSTRUCTIONS FOR INSTALLING VOLTAGE REGULATORS.pdf PS I've learned a ton!
I would give it a try, I hate waiting when something is not working...even if I don't need to use it If that reg was sitting for decades, but dry, the points might not need cleaning. I found out how to test that Lucas reg for dirty points not making contact, with a test light. I had the car running, and figured I could not hurt a regulator that was no good anyways... So I just carefully snuck the needle tip of the light onto each side of whatever set of points was closed at idle. One set had power on one half of the set, but nothing on the other point that it was touching.....so common sense said it must be corroded/dirty. Cleaned both sides with a jewelers file and it worked fine. The book said one set of Lucas points should not not be cleaned with sandpaper, that's why I did a file...and I then pulled clean paper through, to clean any particles left from the file. I like screwing with stuff especially if it doesn't work anyways ..I even push points together with my finger, when running, just to see what happens
It's like a Christmas Miracle but Tuffy is charging!!! You gotta love the good old Made In The USA stuff. I took the VR off the other engine and opened it up and it looked like new. A little wire modification, fired him up and the ammeter pegged out at 30+ amp, battery voltage showed 13.8. Guess I need to change to a 60 Amp gauge since the generator is rated at 35. I will keep the new VR for a spare. Thanks for all your help!!
Ha, Ha, you set 'em straight Old stuff is good. Some new made parts are a gamble at times; like should a person re-use a mint used original Ford-Chev-Mopar throw-out bearing while doing a clutch, or order up a new one that may be inferior... On your amp gauge. I think I saw the amp rating tests in the manual at around 30amp...So, I'd run the car on trips around town until the very discharged battery cells raise their specific gravity, which can take a couple of days... Then see if the amp gauge now stays way below where it is now. The battery needs to stabilize. Bear in mind that those old gauges were made for generators, not alternators that do produce more amps, so your gauge should be fine. BTW, it's not a miracle, it's the difference between wanting to learn how stuff works, rather than being afraid to understand and try things. good job
Maybe I should explain the battery and amp gauges better. Hope it's not too long to follow. When a good battery gets repeatedly drawn down by poor charging, the acid in the battery changes. There used to be the small glass tester with colored balls that float, like the old antifreeze testers. These battery testers checked the specific gravity in each cell, and if all cells were equal, but low, it was a discharged battery. If one or two cells were way down, it would indicate failing cells and a bad battery If you had a battery with low but equal readings on all cells, and then put it on a slow charger for a day, it will still not show the specific gravity to be all the way up yet. I mention all this because you will notice it in your amp gauge, especially on most older aftermarket gauges. Those gauges did not have needle dampers, so you will see rapid needle movements that might cause concern. That's why it's good to run your car for a few days to not only get the S.G. up to normal, but also to now see how the gauge is then behaving. A battery also has a "surface charge", and then a reserve capacity. Think of it as the old glass milk jug with cream at the top . The surface charge is good stuff but gets used up quick on starting the car, so your sensitive gauge will always show a big spike when first started while it replaces the surface charge. So, back to the discharged battery and the gauge readings; As the specific gravity changes after a few days of driving, your gauge reading "after" the first start-up spike, should now run a bit lower on the gauge, because the SG is back to normal. Most car factory OEM amp gauges were dampened so these spikes and whatnot are not as noticable..
Good information F&J! I understand as I deal with specific gravities all day long at work. I need to put some miles on Tuffy anyway so this is a good excuse and I now feel comfortable leaving home without an extra battery. Thanks so much for all your help!
The Jalopy Journal
