Using an extension cord is fine, as long as it is sized to carry the load. I have an extension cord for the welder in a friend's shop that we use quite often. It is #8 stranded. Heavy, expensive, safe. Using 100' of #10 near its maximum rated aperage will result in unacceptable voltage drop. The load you are supplying and the length of the extension are what will determine the required wire size. Extension cords themselves aren't any problem. They just need to be properly sized.
We all appreciate your input. I value your input and you are probably a very good electrician, but I have met more than I care to "so called" electricians that are licensed and don't know didly about NEC. When I wire my house stuff up, everything is to code or overcode. No skimping here. I have even told some of these electricians what the code is for jobs they are doing. Hell even the city inspector did not know that #4 stranded wire is good for 71 amps. BTW I am an EE. FYI: My Lincoln buzzbox called for 40 amp service, but recommended 10/3 SO for short extension cord. GO FIGURE.
I have mentioned this before and LOVE to get contractors fired up.............CODE is the LEAST required standard! Code is like getting a "D" and still graduating! Code is also ignorant of new or "different" technologies. So do not go bragging to me about being "up to code". You barely p***ed mofo! Impress me and do like the gent above and tell me you went BEYOND code. That said, do it right. Like I said before, modern welders........including my pals high end Lincolns use the new standard plug that looks like a 110 on steroids. No more 6 combos of ****ty dryer plugs to deal with.
A 40 amp circuit should carry no more than 80% percent of its over current protection. So your welder must be near 32 amps full load. That is why the 30 amp # 10 cord.
Yeah, manufacturers are not required to follow the NEC's ampacity limits. Truth be told, the rated duty cycle of most hobby welders is low enough that #10 is probably fine. Probably. You really need to KNOW. Anyone know what the rated duty cylce of their welder is? BTW, that new standard plug is simply a 2 pole, 3 wire 50 amp plug. A 50 amp plug on a #10 cord. As was said before, go figure.
Yes, always try and know the duty cycle. As for the new "standard", I dealt in fitness equiptment for years, studied electrical under a pal of mine that teaches it professionally and wired my own house (legal here, fully inspected). I know enough to know when to ask about stuff. When these new plugs came out, nobody knew what was up on the street. For a guy like the thread starter asking questions and walking into a Menards or Lowes it is overwhelming! In fact, we bought our new welder last week and even tho I KNEW what plug it needed it took 20 minutes and a phone call to a pal to find where the things were on the shelf!
That's not what they were saying, they were saying using two separate 110v circuits, separate breakers, no tie bars on breakers. It could potentially hurt the welder if one side blows and the other side doesn't. If you used two breakers side by side and used a tie bar, then I guess that would work. I wouldn't do it, but then again I wouldn't do a lot of things that other people would... I didn't get into it being right or wrong, I just don't think it's a good idea, just my personal opinion.
The answer is yes you can still run a 220 dual breaker into your garage and do it to code.... You obviously have 110 running on one breaker to your garage... Pull the 110 breaker and disconnect the wires at the fusebox. Install your 220 dual (ganged) breaker with one side into the old 110 garage slot and the other to the empty slot. (you may have to move a wire/breaker over if the 110 garage breaker is stuck between 2 other breakers, no big deal) Run a hard cased (not extension cord) 4 wire 220 line to your garage. 2 wires are gonna be hot, Connect one wire each off of each side of the 220 dual breaker at your box. Connect the other 2 wires to the breaker boxes bussbars, there are usually 2 distinct ground bus bars inside most newer breaker boxes. Run one ground wire to each (ground) buss bar if you have 2 grounding bars inside your breaker box. With all 4 wires hooked up, put Leviton L14-30 220 receptacles (pic attached) in your garage for your 220 outlets and a male L14-30 plug on your welder. I bought the Leviton L14-30 wall outlets and plugs off ebay but they are available at home depot etc.. The 4 conductor wire I bought new, it should be hardcased and not an extensinion/soft cord to keep everything to code. By running 4 wires to your garage in this manner you will now be able to pull 2 X 110's off the 220 4 conductor circuit as well as garner your 220 to run your welder/compressor etc.. In other words, you have 2 lines/breakers hooked up to the breaker box at 110V each side and combined they make 220 to run your welder/compressor. You can then locate/find the original 110 wiring were it enters the garage. Cut the wire and connect it to one side of the 220 circuit and your lights/plug ins will all work. Use a Large octagon box to keep to code and to contain the 220 4 conductor and 110 line while tieing into the 220 circuit/wire. You may as well leave the old 110 wiring in the walls to the breaker box in the house just make sure it is unhooked at both the breaker box and were ever you tap/cut into it and moved it over to the one side of your 220 circuit in the garage. -It should be a totally dead wire in your walls between the breaker box and wherever you chop it to hook into your 220 circuit in the garage. If you wish you can run lights on one 110 circuit (one side of the 4 wire 220 line) and plugins on the other side of the circuit to redistribute the load. If you don't have a lot of lights or plugins on your existing 110 then they may be all right running all 110 on one side of the 220 circuit. If you use an electrician, he will know how to do this but will question why you'd wanna put an industrial strength circuit in your garage and all you'll have to tell him is that you want to run 1-220v line as well as garner 2 110v lines and that you are moving the original 110 line over to one half of the new 220V circuit due to limited breaker box circuits (as you've stated).. The circuit and Leviton L14-30 receptacles are industrial use and are designed EXACTLY for this purpose. Do things to code. This method is to code. If you do not wire your garage to code then your fire insurance is null and void. I've attached a pic of the Leviton L14-30 connector. It is 4 prong, one prong is 'L' shaped and the L faces into the center of the plug. Use #10 wire for longer runs. It's a little expensive per foot but it will handle all the power you'll ever possibly use period. Shop around for the best price in your nearest city as prices vary widely on copper wire. Check out the specs on this ebay ad, notice that the ad states very clearly 110/220. That is what these Leviton L14-30 plugs and corresponding circuit are designed for... 2 X 110 + 1 X 220 on 4 wires. This is to code. http://cgi.ebay.com/Leviton-L14-30-...-125/250V_W0QQitemZ390024576074QQcmdZViewItem $12.95 is an exceptionally good price, I bought 7 outlets for both shops and the shed. It's nice to have at least two 220 plug ins in a garage, more in larger shops. I would Design your 220 system to be expandable, so 2 circuits with wiring is a good start for a garage. You may find that your compressor has a 110/220 wiring circuit so you might wanna switch your compressor to 220 or buy a bigger compressor like I did. . . Leviton L14-30 Locking Receptacle Outlet 30A 125/250V Manufacturer: Leviton Mfg. Part #: 2710 Poles: 3 Wires: 4 NEMA#: L14-30R Phase: Single Phase Grade: Industrial Specification Grade Amperage: 30 Amp Voltage: 125/250V .
If he's using a 30A double pole breaker, doesn't that mean he's putting a circuit designed (at best) for 20A on a 30A breaker. Tom Henry's gonna be pissed!
. Not sure what you mean, this is a 30A service. ...Designed for a 30 amp ganged 220 breaker at the box. The existing garage 110 wiring will be fine at it's (probably) 14/2 size when tapped into the 220 circuit when it's used just for existing 110 lights/plugs. -No need to change the existing lights, plugs and 110 wiring, just tap into the 220 line where it enters the garage. Use a ganged 2 pole 20 amp breaker if worried about existing 110 wiring. 14/2 wiring is good for 20 amp while #14 is good for 25 amps. .
I can't argue with that logic, As others have correctly stated, Always do it to code. If you don't do it to code, your house/fire insurance is null and void. All those years that everything worked ok and you faithfully paid your fire insurance will be a waste of money and a loss of a house with No fire insurance coverage. Insurance companies don't have to check your wiring until they sift thru the ashes and find a way not to cover you. (and you won't find a check in the mail for 10 years of paid coverage either, no refunds) Do it to code.
you can get what is called a twin breaker,it takes up one space but has two lugs,this is used to make space for the 2 pole breaker your going to use for your 220v circuit,just make sure you know what your connecting to the twin breaker,this is only using 1 leg (120v)so dont disconnect your a/c circuit to put on there,it wont work! make sure you use the correct wire size for the circuit you need and correct breaker...type,size,etc.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you are proposing but if I'm reading it correctly you are connecting 14AWG wire to a 30Amp breaker when you tap into the 220 circuit. That does not protect the wire, it would be possible for that wire to burn in an overload situation without tripping the breaker. So far I think Rande has given the best advice, and for Electrodude, I'm another Engineer
You know when I saw tis thread popup I thought NAWW not what I m here for, i want hotrods! Didnt bother posting. Somebody got on the welcome wagon and bumped every FNG intro so it was just pointless and I find my self here now. I Can not believe some of the ideas here? I think hes got room in the panel no problem, 39 posts go by before somebody thinks to remove the existing 110 and install a double pole 220. MoeFuzz got it right untill he says hook up a 110 14 ga. line on the 30 amp leg WTF !! Code knowers , engineers, backyard sillys -You all are going to burn **** down make it cost more than it should and drive the pour guy crazy. Endless banter about extention cords wtf. Electrodude is just tring to keep you safe and do it right, those corners your cutting aint worth it and it dont need to be that complicated. Electrodude dont appologize for doing what you know is right, the first time you do some bodys going to get hurt, this i know my friend. Somebody needs to think a head and run bigger wire than he needs out there today, because you know next week he's going to get a 50amp compressor and you all will be doing this **** again. Moefuzz , post#39 is on the ball up untill what would be his 6th paragraph spaceing, then I dont know what happened ??? !!! Where this sevice enters the garage , install a sub panel. (anybody heard of them) With another 220 breaker and the propper size 110 breakers, use ground faults. Split the 110's for the lights and the recepticals, Drop the plug for the 220 where he wants it. Get him a chunch of 8-3 SO cord to get to the other end of the garage or out into the drive way. AND GET BACK IN THE TRUCK !!!!! Leave the engineeres on the phone in the office, call them if you need to know a voltage drop or propper size wire, you cant fit all that knowledge on the job or books in your pocket, thats what your cell phone is for. I'm done pontificating now. Can we go back to building hotrods, please. Tman I'm with you " YOU JUST BARELY P***ED MOFO!" HA HA
Sub-panel - easy as pie - if your breaker panel is already in sheetrock, go to the void under it and stick a little hole in the sheetrock. Make sure there are no major wires emanating from the bottom of the breaker panel, then open up that hole to the most convenient stud (so you can mount the small breaker box). There should be a knockout plug in bottom of the main box, poke one out, the stick whatever cable is appropriate for the amperage of the new breaker you're installing - hook the new cable wires up to the new breaker, and then go get your 120 from each side, plus neutral. Been awhile since I've done this, so I'm probably leaving out a step. If you're not familiar with how 120/240 house wiring works, just have an electrician do it (make sure he's licensed and bonded). dj
Surprised no one's asked him machine specs. New machines are pretty efficient. My first mig pulled 15 amps wfo. The one I have now is 20-25 max and you're not running it there. I have a 50 ft. extension cord. Wanna say it's #8 in a rubber sheath. It was $150 fifteen years ago. One thing we did on my first machine was to hard wire the power cord on it into another breaker mounted on the machine. Plugging it into a standard welder outlet it actually had no protection. Being a 15 amp machine it would have been a molten lump before it ever tripped the 50 amp breaker. The one I have now the switch is a breaker. Find a good common sense electician. There's safe ways around all this stuff.
I am posting this to keep every one safe. I was a Fire Official for 15 years. Cable size and amps. Up to 100 Feet of Copper wire. Amps Wire gauge 15 12 20 10 30 8 you can use 10 up to 50 feet 40 6 you can use 8 up to 50 feet 50 6 At 150 feet move up 1 gauge. aluminum wire use one gauge higher. I do no recomned using aluminum wire. If you have aluminum wire in your house and going to attach copper wire to it you will need special connector. You also need to know the total wattage for each size wire AMPS WATTS SAFE CAPACITY 15 1800 1440 20 2400 1920 25 3000 2400 30 3600 2880 Also stay away from cheap electrical adapters. make sure any electrical adapters have a UL label on it. All adapter I use have circuit breakers or surge protectors. Being a Fire official I have seen the outcome of inadequate wiring. Its not good. Extensions cord. In the house no less then 14 gauge and in the garage no less then 12 gauge. If you have those light weight extension cords like the one they sell for chistmas get rid of them. Some of them are only 18 gauge and only good up to 7 amps. They are only good for lighting a chistmas candle in your window. Do not cover those light wieght cords. they will overheat and start a fire. Use no more then one extension cord from source (Outlet) to appliance. Using extension cords in series is against code. Lets keep it safe out there. One last thing if you are not familiar with electric. find someone that is. You would not beleive what I have seen. To this day I do not know why some of them did not start a fire. I guess it was luck. Do not use duct tape to repair wires. It will conduct electric. Make sure all wire conection are in boxes and use wire nuts.
You need to listen, Hire an Electrician. For those of you that have delt with Electrician's that you felt didn't know what they were talking about, report them to the licensee board or call the county inspector and then find another Electrican. At the least, if you do it yourself have it inspected and signed off (for insurance purpose). And do remember the NEC code is minumum acceptable, bigger is better. It's hard to belive that someone will spend thousands of dollars and many hours building a Hot Rod in a garage that is nothing but a fire hazard just waiting for the right time.
No prob with a 30 amp breaker but use a large gauge extension cord. Too small will get hot, not good.
this is how i did my big compressor too. and even my dryer in my old rental place. the landlord would not pay to have a dryer plug installed, so i got a length of big romex, used a female dryer plug on the dryer side and male oven plug on the other. unplugged the oven when i was dryin clothes and plugged in the dryer. theres always a way to make something work....
This is my last comment on this thread, it's not going anywhere that I like. I'm not the worlds best electrician, and I'm definitely not an engineer (thank God!) But, BUT, I do electrical work, I HAVE wired houses, shops, schools, etc. I work in an industrial plant with multiple PLC's, variable AC drives, I program and do blueprints, design controls and upgrades, I'm building a SCADA system for administrative do***entation, all without outside help. I'm not bragging here, I'm trying to get you to understand where I'm coming from and what I can do. Electrically, there are a lot of things that can work, for a time. Sooner or later, those shortcuts you take, that "doable" wiring that seems to give you what you want, is going to fail. Best case scenario, your going to burn some piece of equipment up, or as I like to say, "you're gonna let the smoke out". Worst case scenario, someone is going to DIE! yes, DIE! Go ahead and post all the smart *** remarks you want, I don't really care what you have to say to defend yourselves or what you've done. If it's not done right, you are risking peoples lives. How can I say that? Well, let's see, my wifes best friend from high school lost her four year old son on a ****ed up circuit put in to power a travel trailer. Seems the ground in the trailer wasn't sufficient, and the cord was too small (wire gauge), this combined with some nifty stuff I could explain with a chalk board and a calculator would make sense, but it doesn't matter if you understand or not, because that little boy is still DEAD! Or how about the dairy I went to where the cows kept falling over every time they left the barn? Pretty funny stuff, that is until we disconnected the main power, pulled the load side leads. The guy in the bucket truck wasn't laughing when he touched the outside of the yard light. Seems some ***hole had tapped feeders off the line side, before the main disconnect. Thank God my partners still alive, most people who put there hands on live three phase don't say much after that. I could do this for hours, honestly. As I sit here, I keep remembering all the insanity I've come across, all from people trying to save a buck and do it themselves, when they didn't have the skill. Heh, how about the mobile homes wired off an outside pedestal? The power kept going off and coming on. We got called out, and when we got there, a little old man said to me, "well, when the power goes out, I just hit this here box with my hammer, and the power comes back on for awhile". Turns out he had a Zinsco (sp) panel, and the buss on one side had corroded away from the breaker, it would open, then Crusty would hit it with his hammer, it would arc and weld itself back together until the heat from the loads would melt it apart again. Oh yeah, this was all taking place about six feet under the transformer on the pole. If you don't know what you are doing, don't do it with electricity. I'll answer anybodies questions, but when you start talking about hacking circuits and sizing wire, you need professional help. If your lifes not worth it, then think about your kids, or someone elses kids. I couldn't live with myself if I did something like that...okay, I'm getting off my soapbox now.
Moe, I know I said my last post was the last, but I missed this. I'm sorry partner, but your information isn't right. 14 gauge wire is only good to 15A in a residential installation. I know what Table 310.16 says, but if you go to the bottom of that table, there are some exceptions. One of these takes you to, I think, Section 210. I say I think because my codebook is at work, and I am not. Anyways, you'll find that for a residence, 14 gauge is only good to 15A, 12 gauge to 20A, and 10 gauge to 30A. You need to size your OCPD according to the load, so if you are going to tap onto a branch circuit, you need to follow the rule for that branching. There are three rules, each depending on how long the branch circuit tap feeders are... And it goes on and on and on... this is why you need an electrician, because that codebook is NOT a book to learn from, it's a reference manual, and as someone said in here already, it's the bare minimum requirement. I hope you don't think I was picking on you Moe, I just have really strong feelings about this subject. I've even wired stuff for free, just so I know it was done right. Speaking of free, if you have a construction trade skill, think about looking into Habitat for Humanity, they are always in need of trade people willing to donate their time and labor to help the less fortunate.
I set the rafters with my crane and then spent one day helping roof a Habitat house for a really cute single mom. It was a rewarding experience, not in exactly the way I hoped, but good none the less.
Before you do anything let your buddy take a look and see if him can upgrade the whole circuitery for the garage. If he is a good buddy he can do it cheap. George
The Jalopy Journal
