Mata, At this point there is NO chop in the Plan.... May have a few other fun things in mind but a chop is not one of them. There is always the next build to try that one. This is my first go at restoring/ hot rodding. I real want to be able to enjoy this one. After that maybe I'll start taking risks .
I'm a little late getting last weekends exploits, but here they are! The Hogshead came back of without a fight. The Transmission popped right out too. Almost like we've done this before We were able to snake the Inner oil tube in without needing to pull the block from the pan again. After a little tugging and pulling the Bands were fitted in place, more silicone was used on top of the cork seal and the Hogs head is back where it should be. On that note the work bench was cleaned and we continued the search for inner tubes. We found them locally, at a small tire shop that specializes in Tractor tires. There is hope that We'll have a rolling chassis soon! CBB
I`m sure you already know this but make sure the 4th main slides in easy.If not it will be out of alignment which the crankshaft doesn`t like.Looking good.
Nice work guys as usual! Just one thing.....I hope you remembered to re-safety wire the crank-to-flywheel/transmission bolts I went through that before...several times which is why I bring it up! Also to make sure it is done correctly too.. Hope the answer is "yes" to these....and that you don't have to pull the Hogshead again! ...Oh!...before I forget, that seal over the top of the crank were the oil pick-up tube is...don't use the factory felt gasket strip.. ...Silicone gasket sealant is your friend Grab a tube of "The Right Stuff"...it works miracles..
Wait, the Crank should have safety wire on it It didn't when we took it apart..... But it does now! We think it's done right. The Tech article here on the HAMB was the best resource (and studying someone else's recent mistakes were a big help). We checked the torque on the transmission bolts and rewired them too. The last guy used copper wire, it had stretched over the years and was not doing much. We did use the factory felt seal. But it was bathed in silicone gasket sealer first. I've gotta pick up another tube of the "right Stuff" the second one is almost empty. 29PU, Thanks for the tip on the fourth. We marked the Crank and the trans to keep everything lined up the why it should be. but there have been enough changes that something could be off. So we will keep it in mind as we put it back on.
Whew! ..Glad you guys did wire it anyway! I can't believe it didn't have wire on it when it came apart! ...and that it didn't fling itself apart years ago! Model T torque specs? ....Every bolt on a Model T has the same torque spec..."tighten until snug"
We've noticed that in most of the manuals. But there is some good information on the net about recommended Torque settings based on bolt size. We shoot for the lower end of the recommended range as the older steel is softer then the new alloys that are out there. It's a little more scientific then "tighten till snug".
..That is my favorite part of the T-1 service manual I will be doing the same when I assemble my engine. What specs did you torque your Flywheel bolts too?
I don't post here much and I don't want to dicourage your build, but. In the many model T engines I have built i have found if you just bolt the transmission to the crankshaft you could end up with up to .060" runout. This will cause a lot of vibration and eat horsepower as well as shorten engine life. If you are interested I could give more indepth info. Slow Joe
I don't think I've ever heard that, but it sounds possible. If memory serves though... I thought the crank was indexed to the flywheel better then that. What do you recommend as a solution?
Henry was building for volume not accuracy. His tolerences were acceptable for 30mph roads. We push them much harder today. Slow Joe
Joe, I have read and talked with Several T folks about the Engine/Trans connection. I have heard that balance is very important to smooth running at higher speeds and have heard the claim of longer life. I've also been told that the rule of thumb is keep the Crank and Trans lined up the same and you can avoid most issues. That's what we Did. But I'm all for learning about how to balance them better. This is the first one of these that I've built so I'm sure I don't know all the tricks. Clayton, We ran the Crank/ trans bolts down to 50-55 foot pounds each. The Torque wrench isn't a great one so it's more likely that is 50-65 foot pounds . But either way it's tighter then what they were when they came out. Every thing on this car has came apart with a 6" long 3/8 Ratchet or 6" combination wrench (box/open). Most every thing seems to be a 9/16th or 11/16th" with a few exceptions. But unlike a new car.... no metric to be found. (we did end up using 6mm bolts on the ring gear to flywheel, so there are metric in her now). Thanks, CBB
We also can not be certain that the crank or transmission have not been changed in the past. Must likely they have. Kind of like "this is George Washington's original axe". The handle has been replaced nine times and the head three times. Slow Joe
Joe, I agree with you there. I also know that the crank/trans connection alignment is key as well as having the engine (crank, rods, etc) and the transmission assembly balanced as well. I just had my new "hot" T motor built and would like to assemble it right. How do you recommend doing that to make sure that it is balanced and aligned correctly? Thanks for those torque specs....will put them to good use.
To start with I assemble the crankshaft, flywheel and transmission shaft without drums in the block. At this point measure run out on the driven plate bushing journal. Your goal is less than .005". You can try different combinations of turning the flywheel or transmission shaft, and may find one that will come in "spec". If not then you start moving metal on the flange of the transmission shaft. Also make sure the mating surfaces of the crankshaft and trans shaft are flat and square. A small ding on either can really screw you up. If you have to "move" the shaft carefully peen the edge of the trans shaft that is the high side and file the low side. You will also have to file the dowel holes to match the direction you are moving the shaft. When I am happy with the alignment of the transmission shaft and have I leave everything assembled and remove from the block and dynamic balance the complete assembley. You will have to remove one flywheel bolt to remove from the block. Want more? Slow Joe
Thank you Joe, excellent info. My transmission was rebuilt and balanced by the same guys that did my T short block. The trans is already assembled and read to install.....can the alignment still be checked with it assembled? Of course, we would love more info if you have it
The most important details in building a model T engine are the transmission shaft alignment, center main bearing alignment, pan and fourth main alignment and connecting rod weight matching. There are many other details but these are the biggest ones. These engines are very simple but to get the most out of the "twenty horsepower" you need to take care of the details. Slow Joe
That is very true....thankfully I had all of that addressed. Mine will be considerably more then 20 hp That really cramps my style a bit....I really don't want to pull that transmission apart...they did a nice job and I really don't want to mess something up. They did say that they balanced the block, the trans and the assembly as a whole....so they may have taken care of this because I had asked about the balancing specifically. I think they trued both surfaces.
I would ask them specifically if they checked the transmission shaft runout with the shaft and flywheel bolted to the crankshaft. If they say yes look for witness marks on the crank flange and flywheel. If they waffle at all with there answer or you find no witness marks it's well worth you time to make sure its right. Model T transmissions are very simple to disassemble and reassemble. We can visit by phone if you have questions PM me. Misalignment means crankshaft flex. Think about what happens when to bend a piece of bailing wire back and fourth too many times...... Slow Joe
Agreed. They do great work and are highly recommended, but it doesn't hurt to check. I will most certainly be in touch. Thanks Joe.
I checked my trans and the crank and they have definitely been checked and machined for run out. Both have definite machine marks and markings for correct alignment.
Model T's are very simple and and would continue to run through horrible abuse and neglect. That is a true testimate to the quality of materials Henry used. The problem lies in the mass production technology and speed for the time period. There were many craftsmen at Ford then, but there were more that were just collecting a wage. No different than things are today. The quality of the parts were a reflection of the mood and attitude of the man operating the machine. And this was way before we had CNC machines that turn out flawless identical pieces with nothing more than a baby sitter. However I believe that well over half of them never actually run to there full potential, even when new. That is good that they are flat. But there is more to it than that. Are the edges of the flange concentric to the journals? Henry wasn't very good about accuracy here and who knows what has happened since then. I'm not trying to rain on your parade or discourage your project. And I'm not trying to discredit anyone in anyway shape or form. It appears you are trying to build a better T and I hope you get what you are after. Slow Joe
Billybob I appologise this thread is for you to share your build, not for me to come in here and run off at the mouth. I will keep quiet and let you have you fun back. Slow Joe
Slow Joe, Billy bob and I thank you for your input. We have discussed what we can do to check for run out and everything else you mentioned. I think the whole idea of this forum is for people to share and learn form the expertise of others. We want this to be a high quality build. Mr Model T has also given us advice and ideas that we have incorporated into the build that is already leading us to build a "better T". BEDFORDBOYS I really like the look of your car. The speedster look is awesome. We are not going that route this time with the body. But, Billy bob and I have already determined there will be a next project and we have not decided what it will be. There is a old guy that lives in our area that has many old speedsters and a junkyard of antique fun. But he will not talk to anyone or let anyone even just go back and look. On the bright side the guy just down the road has four antiques from As to 50s wagons and a sunliner . tedd1957 Sorry, this build is taking all our money for now. I hope you find a buyer and a good home for the car.
Slow Joe, Please do not feel that you need to stop on my account This thread is to show off the build. But it is also to get feedback from the Group here. The Depth and Breadth of the experience and knowledge here is Incredible, so getting Feedback good or bad can only make a project better. Thanks for the Comments and don't be shy about it in the future. CBB
The Jalopy Journal
