1952-59 Ford 3 on tree..any options.

So..I've been thinking about swapping out my 215 for a V8...My First thought was flathead, nothing else sounds like 'em and I love that...But it's my daily and want a little more power, and parts availability...Thinkin' 289, 302, or 351...

Here's my dilemma....I do not want a shifter through the floor and an automatic is out of the question...I don't want to give up the 3 on the tree, and I have a 3spd overdrive layin around. What options are available? I knew a guy that had a 390 in a 51 Business coupe with the 3spd overdrive..Said she straight cruised on the highway..He loved it..

Has anyone mated anything other than a Y block to a 3 Spd?

 

The most popular swap "back in the day" (before the SBF and all the Ford-in-Ford nonsense became popular) was the small block Chevy. It's an easy swap and all the mounts/adapters etc. are readily available. In fact, I have everything for this swap if you'd be interested.

A little 283 would be a huge improvement in power and dependability over a flathead and would not over-stress the stock driveline...as long as you take it easy, that is.

Is there a drawback to this swap? Just one: all the **** you'll have to put up with about putting a Chevy in a Ford. Other than that it's a sweet combination.

 

What did the 3 speed overdrive come out of ? Try to post some casting numbers, you can interchange most 1949-59 standard transmissions lengthwise late '54 and up could have a T-86 or T-85(stronger) Trans-Dapt used to make adapters for this swap,also another HAMB member is Exeter Auto they have some vintage adapters,look them up on Google and give them a call but they will need the above info.

 

from what i have heard there's the 3 speed overdrive, and another type of 3 speed adapted thing that actually gives you six gears, you shift 1, 2 , 3, then go back to 1, 2, 3, however this time the 1, 2, 3, is really 4, 5, 6. i don't know anything else about these, anybody know what i'm talking about. one of the old guys around town was telling me about that when i was talking about throwing in an a 3 spd. overdrive in my ford with the same application as you were mentioning. i think i have a thread about it.. not sure... maybe in the 223 hop up thread i started in the inline motors group.

 

I always liked the 283..Great motor...But was thinking I'd stick with a sbf.

I was told the 3spd overdrive came out of a 54 customline...I'd have to get the casting numbers, I have it stored and can't get to it till maybe next week. I'll have to check with Exeter Auto. Thanks.

I think I remember seeing a thread on a bolt on overdrive, but the one I have is the factory overdrive..

 

If you are going to drop a V8 in , a 289 or 302 will be very nice and you can always back it up with w T5 so you still have the standard shift but also the overdrive for the long highway cruises !
I am doing the same swap to my 55 Ford . I am using a 302 with a big bump stick , and so on . Still the same idea . Now if you want to go with an auto trans , get a Ford AOD early one so you don't need a computer to shift it .
A 351 is also a good choice but wider and heaver ! 302 are a dime a dozen now with all the mustang roller engines around for under $500 and they are good engines !
Jim

 

Guy's.
I hope you don't mind if I ressurect this thread. The 351W and 3-on-the-tree, w/OD is pretty much where i'm leaning for my 54 Customline project. A couple of questions on going this way:
1) Is the T5 fully synchronized?
2) What's a good source for a T5?
3) Can I keep my 3-on-the-tree?
4) Will I need to modify the drive shaft, and how?
5) Can I stay with the stock rear end currently behind the I6, 223, 3 speed with-out OD?

 

As I understand it, the Mustang T5 is a fully synchronized 5-speed on the floor, with no means of adapting it to your column shift mechanism.



It's a great ******, and some have a very high overdrive ratio...perhaps too high for a conventional carbureted motor with a common 3.0 - 3.2 rear drive ratio. Of course, you can always drive in 4th gear...

Have a driveshaft specialty company build a custom driveshaft once you've got your engine/transmission/rear end in place. Trying to find one in a wrecking yard will make you crazy...and won't save all that much money since it'll most certainly have to be shortened and modified on one end or the other anyways.

If your motor is pretty much stock with a conventional carburetor, it will be happiest at 2000 - 2500 at cruise speed. Keep that in mind when you start figuring final drive gear ratios...

 

Trikepapa,take a good look at the T-5 in the picture,notice the shifter? no way will that hook up to your column shift.As for the driveshaft if you swap the front yoke for a later C4 or AOD yoke it will plug into the T5 output splines,Summit sells the yokes seperate,it may still require a conversion U-joint.

 

I guess I miss-read Fallen1's thread, he was indicating he wanted to keep his 3-on-the-tree and I thought someone was recommending a T5 as a solution. Sooooo, do I have some 3 speed manual w/OD options to allow me to save a tree, or second best, just 3 speed manual and again save the tree? If "yes" to either or both:

1) What's a good source for a recommended ******?
2) Will I need to modify the drive shaft, and how?
3) Can I stay with the stock rear end currently behind the I6, 223, 3 speed with-out OD, which will be replaced with the 351w and the recommended ******, adaptable to the tree?
Thanks guys, for bearing with me..... I'm slow, but I always get there

 

Yes... You can adapt a 351 to either the stock 3-speed or a 3-speed w/ overdrive and retain your column shift linkage. No mods necessary if you use a stock transmission...either kind.

1. If you want a stock ****** with o/d, pray...or, look just behind your current engine if a non-o/d 3-speed is desired.

2. Not with a stock transmission. If your current transmission is w/o overdrive and that is what you want to retain, keep your driveshaft, too. If you want an o/d ****** and have a non-o/d unit now, you'll need an o/d driveshaft to go with the o/d ******...or have your current driveshaft modified by a driveshaft specialty shop.

3. Yes, but you might need a gear change, depending upon which ****** you use. See the criteria in my previous post.

Keep in mind that you'll have to be on your best behavior with a stock ****** mated to a 351. Otherwise you'll become an expert at changing transmissions out...which is why I mentioned the traditional 283 Chevy swap in the first place. A 260 or 289 SBF might be a better choice of Ford motors than the 351 if you plan to retain your stock 3-speed ******, with or without o/d.

 

What is needed in order to use your stock 3 speed with the 351? I have 2 3speed transmissions. 1 with OD and one without. I didnt know they were compatable.

 

Good point, Rocky. In this day and ago when adapters are available to mate just about any engine to just about any transmission...and because the 260/289 would make such a neat swap into the '49 - '56 cars...I just ***umed an adapter was available. I sure hope I didn't make an "***-ume" out of myself.

Help! Somebody please de-***-ify me! Pleeeeeze!

 

I asked this question a while back. Here is the link to that discussion. Hope this helps in some way.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=18439

 

Earlier on, you were mentioning making a 3sp/OD into a 6 sp. Make sure OD cable is pulled out. How this works is:
1) 1st gear up to at least 28mph, and let off on throttle
1) will automatically shift into 1st OD
3) shift into 2nd gear, and mat pedal so kickdown will shift into 2nd
4) speed up, let off on throttle, to shift into 2nd OD
5) do same in 3rd as you did in 2nd
6) do same as going into 2nd OD

 

I remember that thread, Rocky. It went nowhere...much like the research I've been doing. Looks like the '49 - '64 transmissions are not compatible with '65 - up small block Ford engines. Period.

So... It looks like trikepapa is SOL except if he uses a small block Chevy motor. Mounts and adapters are available for this swap.

Jamco website shows a SBF into '57 - '59 Ford which includes a transmission adapter plate, but is very short on details. The transmission on these cars would be the same as your '54, and perhaps you could buy just the adapter plate?

Jamco also shows an engine swap mount kit for the SBF into '54 - '56 Ford cars, but no mention of an adapter plate with this kit.

Curious...but worth a 10-cent call.

 

Im actually thinking about keeping the y block that I have and putting a c4 behind it. There is one hooked to my brothers 351w at the moment and he doesnt want it. Says that automatics are for girls. I just laughed at him and told him that at least mine will be on the road. (He's got a loooong way before hes on the road) I will probably get my adapter goodies from Mummerts. I will also have another 272 yblock with a 3speed OD for sale soon. In the process of cleaning it all up right now. (if anyone is interested)

 

We just put a 351w into the 55 that we are building. The owner was firm on keeping the three on the tree so we keep the stock 3pd with overdrive.

1. We found an early cast iron small block bell housing, I'll look to see if I can find the exact casting number
2. The output shoulder is smaller in OD than the bell housings ID, so we made a ring to the difference. With the ring fit over the output shoulder the ****** was located to the center of the crank.
3. We then centered, bored, and tapped the bell housing to the ******s' bolt pattern and to our surprise the bell housing already had bungs cast into it for this bolt pattern which makes sense because these ******s were used for a very long time.
4. We bolted the bell/****** to the block and found that the pilot bushing is the same diameter but that a new one needed to be machined so that it would stick about a half inch further than the small block's stock flywheel.
5. We had a clutch made to the match the flywheel and the one inch ten spline on the trans.
6. Using a 73 f100 clutch fork.
7. I guess I'll let you guys know how it goes since we are going to install the motor today. It'll be posted here and under the Gessiler 55 thread in this group.

 

Great!!
And all this for under $100 huh

 

That's great news! Can you give more info on the custom clutch disc? Thanks.

 

Just to be clear...... I was joking about the "under $100" comment, sometimes I have to settle for just making myself laugh.

 

Missysdad1,
I know we sorta got off in the weeds on what my options are, can you clarify based on your experience and understanding of other threads on the subject, maybe in order of cost, low to high? I would really appreciate it.

 

Well it seems like ntxcustoms has a good solution. Non the less missydad1, how is putting a sbc in it going to fix anything? The problem is shifting gears from the column and every chev 4 spd I have seen does not have magic shifters locations, they are similar to Fords toploader. I'm confused with your answer.

Ford used to have a 3 speed manual that came in my Falcon. I thought they were an overdrive but I can't be positive about that.

 

Awesome! This could really help some people out! Great job ntxcustoms. Can't wait to see how it all turns out!

 

Trikepapa: Sorry, I can be of no help when it comes to cost. I don't think we've even come up with a viable Ford-based solution, other than that suggested by nxtcustoms. He'd be a better source for cost info.

fordsbyjay: Not a solution, just another alternative. The parts to install a Chevy v8 in a '54 Ford and adapt it to the stock column-shifted ****** are widely available, whereas the parts to mate a 260-351 to a column-shifted pre-65 Ford 3-speed are not. That's my only point. Not looking to stir up Ford/Chevy **** here, just trying to be helpful.

 

Here is some 3 speed OD info. This would be the easiest way to maintain your column shift.

here

This chart is for speedo gears but non the less it lists all the years and applications for 3 speed od's.here

Here is part numbers and good description. More info here as well.

 

missysdad1 I have no doubt you are just trying to help. I just don't understand what chev transmission would adapt to a column shift that would be so radically different then a Ford transmission. I sure don't know everything, just trying to learn something new in your case.

 

Excellent info, fordsbyjay. Looks like the 3-speed o/d ****** from a '58 to '64 Ford p***enger car with FE engine would be trikepapa's best choice, all things considered. If the adaptation to the '65-up SBF engine nxtcustoms talks about is viable, this would be a pretty darn good combo, in my humble opinion.

 

Sorry for the poor explaination, fordsbyjay. I'm not talking about using the Chevy transmission, I'm talking about adapting the Chevy engine to the stock Ford column-shift 3-speed transmission that's already in the car (or an overdrive version of the same ******).

This swap is older than dirt and works very well. Unlike the earlier Fords, the '54-up swap does not require a pan/pickup change, as I recall, or a butchered center link, so it's very, very simple to do.

The only real problem comes with building a motor that's too powerful for the transmission... Using the 3-speed (or 3-speed w/ o/d) that came behind the FE-engined '58 - '64 cars as mentioned in the article in your link should solve that problem as well.

 

The trans that came with the car was mated to a V8 yblock and held up for all these years just fine, in fact two kids learned how to drive in this car! These transmissions were used up to 66? or 68? in trucks so I don't really see any problem unless your prone to tearing your stuff up anyway. We're building this car as a very dependable driver but I guess if your building anything else you'd want to look at other options. It just seems to me that your kinda limited if you want the column shift. Trust me I hem-hawed over this for awhile. Any clutch builder can make you what you need if asked... IF this all pans out we will make a kit that will include the clutch kit, throw out bearing, pilot bushing, centering ring, and linkages for the clutch fork. Thanks! Oh and i'll post as we go....