339 C.i. Aluminum Flathead..ready To Go To G.n.r.s.

I love anything w/o overhead valves.

I've been into Harley 45s for a long time. I even like tinkering with the B&S in the lawnmower. I like the Willys Super Hurricane 226 too! And while I've not played too much with them, the Caddy flatheads are neat too. Yada, yada, yada.

I think this is a neat concept. I applaud them for their effort & investment - something I can only dream about. I really appreciate Kevin's comments above - I'd have been sorely tempted to improve even more things if it were me.

Like many things I like, it's out of my price range (unless I hit the lottery soon), but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate it.

It isn't an old flathead. It's a new engine that shares some aspects of the old flathead because the designers are passionate about flatheads.

 

AMEN!!

 

The HAMB is a discussion forum not a Chearleading Squad...

I'm dissapointed that the pics were pulled too. The discussion lives on though... That has to mean something...

For me this is still a flathead... Not necessarily a Ford flathead, but then agian, the motors guys like Barney Navarro built didn't have a whole lot to do with a Ford flathead any more either.

But flatheads have design limitations. These limitations dictate a relative ceiling to the ammount of Horse Power you can make that has little to do with simple factors like cubic inches...

The volumetric efficiency of a flathead motor will limit the benefits gained from simply increasing displacement.

Yes, low-end torque can be utilized. Theoretically you could build a torque monster with a giant flathead but sooner or later, you might as well pull the spark plugs and replace them with glow plugs... You'll basically end up with an out-dated diesel.

You can also get creative with coatings and porting and innovative combustion chambers. But that can be done on a iron block just as easily as an aluminum one with the same effect.

That's what my problem is with the aluminum flatty... It's not that it isn't traditional, or that it's expensive. It's that it solves a non-existant problem.

The limiting factors to performance with a flathead don't have a lot to do with the block itself beyond the fact that the valves and exhaust ports are in it. 99.95% of flatty nuts don't need a $15k aluminum flathead block with relatively minor improvements, they need a whole bunch of $100 flathead blocks to mess with.

Also if you whipe the slate clean and start with a whole new block, where do you stop? Do you open up the exhaust ports (even though the flow data seems to indicate that the exhaust ports aren't that big a problem in the flatty)? What about splitting the center ones like Navarro suggested? Do you spread the valves apart a bit to allow for bigger valves? Do you change the angle of the valves? Do you shit-can the valve configuration all together and come up with something new, including a new bolt placement, head design, and intake manifold? If you do some of that, why not the rest? Then, what do you end up with?

Could your average high-school kid build a SBC out of a catalogue that would hand you your hat and gloves, and send you to church on sunday, for a fraction of the cost? That used to be why kids built flatheads...

I'm not trying to stand in the way of progress here. I just don't really see this as progress.

I applaud the work. I recognize the commitment and skill that went into the project. And I respect Mark Kirby and crew for pulling it off...

I even hope I get to see it and hear it some day...

I just sort of scratch my head at the whole deal.

Just to prove I'm no SBC Neophyte... Here's my labor of love.

 

Pulling the pictures from what is surely one of the bigger flathead communities and information sources was a great move. Now we lack any evidence that the thing exists...and they'll sure need awareness and interest from the actual traditional rod people once the "Traditional" fad finishes flitting through Streetrodder and those guys go back to 2008 Corvette crate motors with peach and teal covers.
Flathead and deuce people are ideal customers since we are long beyond shock at pricetags...so where's the product?

 

????????????????????????? Now thats a stupid statement. What do you think its all smoke and mirrors? This isn't some fly by night operation.

 

I think Bruce was being a little tongue in cheek?!

 

Man, this thread is getting some legs.

I would agree that there was some sarcasism that didn't translate via the internet.

 

I applaud them for breaking new ground and can appreciate he skill, money and time that went into this. I’m hoping it pays off. I think some of the comments here were kind of harsh, but given the audience I’m not surprised. There is a market for a brand new crate flathead that big buck builders can drop into their customers project right along with an automatic and an tilt column.
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For others, it’s not original so they’ll never buy one. I’m somewhere in between. I searched for and bought original ’52-54 headlight rings to french the headlights on my shoebox even though new repops are available and I probably spent just as much. I’ve seen too many Chinese repops, so I opted for 50 year old American quality. But on other occasions I’ll buy modern stuff to make my life easier that I can hide on the car.
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The other problem you have is that what sometimes makes sense to you doesn’t make sense to guys in this hobby who like to fend for themselves or don’t want to spend the money. Your development time and set-up time is apparently worthless. I’ve made a few pieces to make life easier for guys trying to kustomize a shoebox only to be left holding the bag. I can’t understand why guys would rather spend hours messing with stuff with a lesser result than if they just spent a few bucks more to get a quality, application specific part. Just look at how many people mess with adapting scrap yard disk brakes to say a ’49-51 Ford when ECI will send you all the brackets and pieces made for the application for $199.
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Good luck. I hope to see and hear one sometime.

 

And on the smoke and mirrors...this project has been cooking for a LONG time, and continual rumors and the near collapse (actually due to unavoidable trouble, not any deficiency!) of the highly hyped MCF company naturally led to the "smoke and mirrors" rumors. It appears the thing has actually arrived, and one example has been sighted in NJ even. But yanking the pics puts it back to smoke and mirrors for anyone who checked into this discussion after the first hours. Engine? What engine? Haven't they gotten it done YET?? He apparently finished his project...and poof! turned it into smoke and mirrors again! WTH?
This is an AMAZING job they've done, MUCH more difficult than bringing an aftermarket SBC onto the market, and the problem solving and changes in main bearings and valve gear show great creativity in engineering.
This is a great product with a market, and I think they are approaching us wrong here. The lifetime flatheaders, some of whom are young still, are the long term market. They will have an engine at the show, and make a big splash in the streetrod market. BUT the streetrod market is a fad market, whereas most flatheaders here are lifers.
Smoke and mirrors...that period ends when you can dial 1-800-FLATHEDZ, read them your visa number, and hear a big thump on your porch a week later...

 

it was a poor decision to pull the pictures and not field any questions about it... but then again i dont think gooseta2 is qualified to talk on MCF's behalf, as he seems to be apart of the Shadow Rods crew??

whatever, aint no skin off my back... ive got quite a few good 24 stud blocks for racing, im sure ill find more.

 

I still think this is intended mostly to be marketed as a complete engine. There are enough original blocks around that individuals with the determination to seek out parts and endure a long learning curve (which is to say the sort of lunatic like me that hangs out here) can build flatheads. There just aren't enough good cores floating around to support a commercial output, and there's a market for flathead engines. A shop can't spend time hunting in barns and junkyards for blocks and can't absorb the cost of all the messing around to find out if the core is usable...this allows engines to be built without wasted energy and without unexpected disasters turning up in an engine that has already eaten a lot of money. Plus, it starts out with a hundred cubes more than a flathead starts with...that will be VERY significant, and pretty much precludes direct comparison or racing matchups with originals.
I am very impressed with their sticking to mostly original dimensions, as I had heard otherwise. This guarantees that there will be neat parts made for these things that can be used on oldies. The world needs more supercharger kits, for instance, and the extra interest these new engines cause is sure to churn up all sorts of goodies like that.
Now quit sulking and show your customers the damn pictures again!

 

i agree Bruce, this is exciting stuff, the flathead and the OHV conversions are sources of great enjoyment & interest for me, it IS in fact going to be a lifetime endevour to fully understand it in a performance context.

iam really disappointed that dude took the pics down... its totally lame. some douche bags will bash anything and everything but i couldnt detect any real contempt for the MCF product.... just the typical passionate inquiries one would get from something of this caliber... a fuckin 339ci aluminum FH, thats BIG news.

now, id like to see gooseta2 do what Kirby asked and give us our PEEK... post the pics back up man.

 

Looky here! See how shiny this old block is!
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=180278&highlight=block

 

hey. thanks bruce ;D

that 4 bolt center main is RAD... id drop 10 - 12 large on one, not for bragging rights though, just to race... very exciting!
as an aside, in Flatdog's thread Bluto mentioned a guy named Donnie that made an alloy block without the valves? (Ardun block). do you know anything about it?

 

The Ardun block is a much simpler part because they just left out all the port and valve stuff--I have seen pictures somewhere, so a determined search on Google advanced images would likely find it. Don't know if it is truly available or not. Don Orosco, perhaps?

 

I do not understanding why they pulled the pictures. I went back and reread the posts. If the few compaints about the price or that new isn't old bothers them, they have a pretty thin skin. If they just want a bunch of praise and butt slaps, they should have posted somewhere else, maybe a "me too street rod forum".


Neal

 

bump,
gooseta2 thanks for re-posting the picture, and now theres a video... RAD.

 

I have to admit I am in disbelief at some of the negatives. Let me try to articulate why I think this is so dog gone cool.

It's 2008 guys, the Flathead Ford is still doing a heck of a job fending for itself in this age of high tech everything. But much time has passed and our expectations are higher in almost every category. Just to give you an example, I like to ride dirt. When I started out my bike had 4"- 5" of wheel travel. Currently I have 12" at both ends. I can charge through woops that back in the day would have bucked me off. Now I like vintage dirt bikes just like the next guy but once the bar is raised you miss the best.

How does this relate to Flathead Fords? First let me say I know Mark Kirby and he is a super person. Brilliant but unassuming. Forgot more about Flatheads than most of us will ever know. Done alot for the Flathead community. I know he has dreamt of this engine for a long time. He's a hot rodder that has the talent to take on a project of this magnitude. Anyway, whether we know it or not most people have some pretty high expectations for their cars. Another example? (The current Mustang complete with it's smooth running, fuel efficient, and clean 281 cubic inch V8 will give most "muscle" cars of the `60's a helluva run for their money). How many Flatheads have been pulled and engine bays been hacked because the owner wants more rocks? Can someone give me a quick count of all the early Fords with some other powerplant in it? Thought so. Kind of a lot huh? OK then do me a favor lets have a roll call for all these transplanted OHV's how many are running strickly `50's parts? Oh I see a 350 is justa sbc right. Oh no! not by your guy's standards. That 350 you're spinning is NOT traditional. So let me ask you guys, why'd ya do it. Just to give yourself headaches by converting the WHOLE driveline to something else? Or is it you simply want the exquisite lines and aura of an early Ford but when it comes to go you want it to be as fast as your wife's Camaro?

The way I look at this is, here is an evolution of a great engine in it's own right. Flatheads have a lot going for them, beauty sound, simplicity, and torque. This new engine concieved and manufactured right in the Detroit area, FoMoCo's "backyard" is what I'm sure would have been very similar next step if the Flatheads were'nt relegated to history by the new powerful overheads. Why should Flathead progress be frozen in time? The sbc certainly has seen constant updates. Why is this different?

As far as specifics I can't wait to see them myself. I do know however that this engine profile is virtually identical to a stock. Trannys, intakes, water pumps, ignitions, covers, etc. will fit this engine. Not sure about the pan. No need to hack up a Ford to put this in. What it will do I'm sure is put Flathead performance on parr with some pretty strong contemporary V8's. I think some other fellow's comments of why not put overhead valve cylinder heads on it misses the point. This high performance Flathead raises the bar and still keeps the essence of what makes a Flathead special.

 

I built a 322C.I. Flathead in the 60's. Ran 13.70 in C/SR. Then along came the292 Chev. It made more H.P. Almost stock than the Flathead. Boy, wish I still had it. Nelson

 

I`m all for It !
you know every one before 1955 would be jumping all over this if they could have.

 

Don Ferguson

 

What times did you run with the Chev?

 

It sounds wicked thats for sure.

 

Well ... I re-read this thread from top to bottom.

Is a (the) NEW style ALUMINUM "Flat head" NON traditional??
With a coat of engine enamel; who's going to know??

I don't think so.
Many of us have spent untold 100's of hours pouring over the most minute details, trying to
SQUEEZE the last "drop" of H.P. out of ORIGINAL cast iron blocks.
(which ain't in production anymore BTW!!; just in case you are forgetting THAT fact!!)

Along comes some people - flat head lovers remember - that decided to think "OUTSIDE the box" and ACTUALLY "step up to the plate"; lay their hard earned $$$ on the line, and produce an "updated" version of the most popular engine in history!!
(I'm not a foundry expert; but I'll guess the start-up cost of producing this engine is WAY more than any of us realize!)

I'm sure they - MCF and Shadow - agonized over;
"Do we make the exhaust 3 port, or 4 port?" (would it change THE sound)
"Do we eliminate the two water pumps and configure a single pump?"
(two pumps are visible, so keep it two)
"Do we leave the center main TWO bolt, or strengthen it with FOUR bolts?"
(a WEAK issue with flatties; plus no one will be able see them when it's running)
So far as we know, a majority of STOCK parts CAN be used on this engine.

OK, I'll admit the cost will - at least for the moment - be outside the range of most of us; but one of the facts of manufacturing - Henry did it - the more that can/are produced, WILL LOWER the cost.

Right now, I'm tempted to call my travel agent and book a ticket to the G.N.R.S. so I can see - and hear! - this "puppy" in person!!

 

to my knowledge Ardun Ferguson is not producing aluminum blocks for his conversion.

where did you get the info from?

 

Bluto

 

D.D.-well said.

 

i commend their creativity. face it, technology waits for nobody. crate engines are everywhere for every pocket. somebody will purchase one of these and push the envelope even further. Just be glad that it was not made overseas. A marketing niche? you bet. exciting, you bet. Cant wait to see it tomorrow!