351 Cleveland? Good under hood? Better under water?

My new car will be up here next week sometime (yay!) and under the hood is a 74 351 Cleveland. 2bbl, so Im assuming H code...low compression motor. Boat anchor or worth working with? I know less than zilch about Clevelands, all my Ford experience is Windsor motors. It runs which is a plus...any ideas?

I should add, if it has to be removed a chevy will go in its place, Id just rather not do that @ the moment.

 

Although my personal experience with clevelands is limited to tuning, I know of some clevelands that are screamers. I also know people that worship the cleveland. It seems to me that the cleveland is just like most other American pushrod v8s, if you massage on them they will make good reliable power. If I recall correctly the big limiting factors on the cleveland is the exhaust ports, the cam timing and low compression. With the proper cam, intake, carb, head gaskets, a little port work and milling of the head you should be able to have an engine that makes good power for a driver. You would have to go a little deeper to build a screamer.

 

Last I herad (reading Engine Masters) the hot head to have is the CHI head out of, Australia, or New Zealand (I can't remember right now). The exhaust problem is supposedly fixed on all the aftermarket stuff though and Edelbrock has a set too I believe. The best thing about the Cleavland (if it is and not a Midland / Modified) is that it will have the same bellhousing as the Windsor.

I read an article in print somewhere too where someone put a 400M crank into a 351C to get the extra cubes. Don't know what machine work that took (or ancilliary components either).

 

The C is one of my favorite engines. Huge ports & valves (vs the tiny W), valves are canted for better flow. Some say it is a BBC shrunk down. The 2V heads actually have better flow on a street engine than the 4V heads with thier even larger ports & valves. The M is the one with the ex port problem & the M/400 crank has the smaller W mains. Check out www.fordforums.com.au See thier C section!

 

I say, "Good under hood"! The Cleveland is one of the best performance V8 engines made, back in the day.

 

YES... keep it in the HOOD! I (heart) the 351C... you don't need to do anything exotic like the above prescribed milling or crank-swap to have a motor that will spank anything of comparable cubic inches!

That motor was designed around the nearly perfect BOSS-style (or YATES-style, for you NECKCAR fans) canted-valve heads... see the similarity between them and BBC heads? They share the same concept of maximizing flow by optimizing valve angles, but without the compromise of different runner lengths as on the BBC... the Cleveland is the PINNACLE of small-block Ford engine design. Period.

Anecdotally, I had a '74 351C 2V in my F100 when I bought it that had "poop" for compression in two cylinders, a bunch of blow-by, it clattered, etc... well I wasn't going to rebuild it until the damn thing exploded, but it NEVER did... ten years it ran STRONG like that... blue smoke all over the place and it was still a reasonably fast ride. Finally found another donor Cleveland, this time beautifully running, and swapped it out (I posted a thread about it last summer) and I'll NEVER put another motor in my F100.

Long and short of it is... CLEVELAND ROCKS!

 

Awesome! Wow, surprised to read all this! Thanx a ton guys!

 

Have you looked at a Ford NASCAR engine in the last 30 years? Basically a Cleveland.

Like any engine the right combo of parts will make it scream. The wrong combo of parts will make it a dog.

 

Oh, as for advice... nothing new here, but upgraded ignition (same distibutor as the 429/460 LIMA mill), dual-plane aluminum intake with a modern 4bbl, good exhaust (the stock manifolds flow pretty well, but long-tube headers are better)... check the harmonic dampener for "slippage" as I've seen this on more than a few of these... and if you end up pulling the dampener you should check & replace the timing chain to verify it's properly timed and not sloppy... they began to retard the cam timing in '73, so an aftermarket roller chain installed "straight-up" will help.

Have fun!

 

Dude, good score.

An old buddy of mine used to run a 70 mach 1 w/a 351C 4 speed, it was pretty much stock. This was in the 80's and he wasn't a car guy at all. He was 16, his mom got the car in a divorce, and gave it to him to drive (probaby just to piss off her ex). That car would pretty much KILL any stock mustang or vette driving around.

They're great motors. Hide one under the hood of a custom and you'll surprise a few people at the light.

And keep the 2bbl heads. From what I understand they're better for the street.

 

Yes they are strong engines. As stated earlier the 2 barrel heads are really better on a street engine. I drove a borrowed 70 Ranchero GT with a stock Cleveland. Got in a late night stoplight street tussel with a friend in a 72 Corvette. To his utter amazement, [and frankly mine too] I blew his plastic doors off. Keep the Cleveland.

 

Awesome. No headers here, the car in question is a 51 Merc 2 dr, and I had 2 Mercs previously with headers. Shorties arent bad as I put them on a 302/C4 setup I installed in a 50 coupe, but I had long tubes in there once and never a-freaking-gain on anything I own. As much as I like doing tuneups with a box wrench haha.

Yeah, that sounds cool. Definately interest is piqued. Straight up (in my exp with Windsor motors) you mean just dots in a straight line? How much did they retard the cam timing? (IE straight up how much will I be advancing it....dont wanna blow it up!)

3rd...what about cam choice, worth replacing if I do 4bbl swap? Maybe an RV esque patterned cam? Do anything for me or just waste money?

 

Yeah, just align the dots and go... I want to say they retarded the timing 4 degrees? You won't have any interference issues unless you REALLY advance the set, so don't do that... : )

Cam choices are somewhat limited for your application (heavy car, stock trans?, high gears?) so I'd stick with the stock stick or something close... I've had fun talking with the tech guys at COMP before... Cleveland dorks like talking about them, as you can see!

 

Its an auto, so its anyones guess...C6? C4? I have both here incase I decide to swap (both Windsor bells) The rear is a 9" with unknown gearing till I get it here...but Id guess low-mid 3.00s if my guess is right that it was uprooted out of all one car.

 

Your not really advancing it when you put it in strait up, your just unretarding it! i've installed them 4 deg advanced w/o problems. I once did that with an aftermarket cam, not knowing that the thing was made with 5 deg adv built in, still no problems. Cs have a less than completely smooth idle with the OEM cam, check the cam co. discription if you want more. If you get an aftermarket intake, make sure it's for the 2V heads!

 

Keep the 2 Bbl heads they are indeed better for the street and overall driveability. If you ever swap out the tranny consider a AOD. It will bolt up and do improve the gas mileage. Unless you are going to be doing the light to light or drag racing.

 

Not all true..M motors have HUGE 3" mains that get cut down to fit in windsors 2.75" mains IIRC. Clevelands have even smaller mains.

The 2 brl heads do not flow better than the 4 brl heads. That they have is much better velocity which makes more torque at streetable RPM levels.

There are two type of 2 brl heads and the exhaust ports on both suck. Just one sucks a lot worse. The standard 2 brl heads have a little number 2 cast in the corners. The M heads don't. The heads to have are the 2 brl heads. The already poor exhaust ports from the cleveland heads were made worse when they dropped the roof in the bowl around the valve with the water jacket for additional exhaust valve cooling. M motors were meant for huge heavy undergeared cars and trucks and all had the large open chambers which are detonation prone. A cooler exhaust valve lessens this tendancy.

If you buy a timing set, go aftermarket or ask from one for a 70' cleveland. Later stock and stock replacement ones have 5 degrees retard built into the timing chain, not 4 degrees like others have said. If you get a cam, always get a dual pattern with at least 10 degrees more exhaust duration. This will make a lot more power than any single pattern cam.

If you are going to beat on the engine, get a high volume/pressure oil pump and heavy duty drive. Clevelands tend to have oiling problems when stepped on and the extra oil pressure and volume will help a lot.

 

In Australia we only has clevo's until about 84...mainly 2V heads....fine for the street....new aftermarket Aussie CHI 3V heads are said to be good.

Check out Ben Gatt in Australia for 30 years of building clevos all day every day!

 

We also have "funnel web" aftermarket manifolds.

most cars came with the shitty but unbreakable FMX tranny.

Check this out!!!!

http://www.chiheads.com/news_australias_fastest_clevelands_choose_chi.php

 

I owned a 71 mach one with the original 2V cleveland. Real World experience here folks, sitting down? Ready? Here goes, It ran just like any old non modified american pushrod God Bless America, Long Live the Duke Boys V-8. The aussie head rumors are true and nothing has changed, even an amc will roar with a few aftermarket mods and yankee ingenuity. No boat anchor there, the Pantera boys weren't stupid.

 

The Cleaveland engine is definately not a boat anchor, I have one in my heavy, 52 Ford Paneltruck, it has torque and then some, without any mods. The Pantera has the same set-up, 351c and a FMX trans, I just love that combo.

 

Even if it turns out that you have a 351M, you still have a good engine. The 351M has longer rods, and is designed for torque. Swap to a good torque cam (RV type cam) and the early (unretarded) timing chain set [EDIT: or multi-position, as per Drive Em...whichever works for your application] and you've got a great torquer engine (use a good grade of gasoline). Swap to the early 2V heads, as mentioned, and you've got an even better engine. I'm not up on current 4V intake offerings for this engine.

By the way, I had a 4V Cleveland in what was my daily driver for several years. Low end torque was not bad at all...that is so-called "problem" is overblown...but it came on REALLY strong at the mid-range! The 4V Cleveland's low end torque is about the same as most comparable size V8 engines of the time. If you find a set of 4V heads at a reasonable price, use them...especially if they are the early type with the small combustion chambers. You'll make a lot more power than with the 2V heads and have about the same amount of low end torque.

BOTH the 1970 and 1971 Clevelands had straight up timing. I'm not sure about 1972. 1973 had the retarded timing.

If you can find one, use the harmonic balancer from a Boss 351 or 351 HO (or something comparable from the aftermarket).

If you have the stock single point distributor, and don't won't to spend the bucks to upgrade to dual points or electronic, use Accel points. These are the only single points that I've found that will not start bouncing at around 4500 rpms. A single point factory distributor with these points will work as well as a dual point, at least up to 6000 rpm and maybe more.

 

My 4V '73, 351 CJ had the cam retarded 4 degrees, so an earlier timing chain set would be of no help. I had to buy a multi-position timing set and advance the cam 4 degrees to wake it up. Don't believe the 4V engines do not make any low end torque myth either, I have three 4V headed Clevo's that will prove that theory wrong!!

 

Any v8 will make big power if you throw lots of money at it, but Clevelands don't need the heads swaped or reworked for big power like "W" motors do. You can't just throw any hot rod parts in it, look for PROVEN combos. I am going to go out on a limb and say 500 hp is possible on the street without buying heads or forced induction. Thats hard with other 5.7 or 5.8 motors.

 

Oh baby! This thread is getting me all warm and fuzzy....through randomness i got a 351c 2v for 50 bucks and an FMX for 100 the FMX is rebuilt but the motor needs a rebuild. One of the pistons was siezed but with a little w-d i got it unstuck. I bought an Edelbrock performer for it that is waiting till the rebuild.Hopefully the intake is the right one.

 

Spyder, that's not going too far out on the limb. I'll go out a little further out on the limb and say that 600hp is possible with stock, but somewhat modified, heads. It might be pretty radical for the street, though.

Follow the link to a Cleveland that competes in F.A.S.T. that makes over 500 hp with the crappy Autolite carb, factory heads that have been modified some, and factory exhaust manifolds. Of course, there are a lot of mods done on the inside and a lot of compression (13:1). It has 383 cubes.

http://www.fastraces.org/members/fa...973671050922d5de8525729400072f09!OpenDocument

 

i went & looked & we are both off slightly on the mains. according to my sources, the M & W both have 3", the C is 2.75. I consider the M head as a Cleveland style, but not a Cleveland. Untill now I haven't heard compliants about the 2V C heads ex. Many don't recomend HV pump withstock capacity sump, but I haven't had a problem.

 

i had a 351 c motor in a 70 torino that car hauled asssss.it would be a monster out of the hole and tear into 3rd it would grab and teAr your head off.always a good choice. just my 2cents.

 

Funny, I've only seen C4's, or C10's as the Cleveland versions seem to be called in Australia.

Pavtek at www.pavtek.com.au also does a shit load of Cleveland work, including aftermarket heads and manifolds. They've got this: "3V" GOLD PRO 393 CLEVELAND ( 600 HP )
Yum!


From '71 the Cleveland was the Aussie Ford V8 in both 302 and 351 capacities thru the mid 80's, so there's a lot of knowledge and parts for them here.

 

Did they ever put the C-4 trans behind a 351C? I've got a fresh built 351C I got on a trade that I'd like to put in my 30 coupe. It has a 302 with the C-4, but I need to go thru the 302 while I have the body off. It's all built on 32 rails. Will it fit?